I hope the pope does not let up.

together with some discreet "evolutions in thinking," reassignments and retirements before the next meeting a year from now. Francis has the people in the pews behind him , and the opposition has now identified itself publicly.

I'm laying in a strategic supply of popcorn as of now.

between the bishops, anyway. The synod confirmed the Humanae Vitae approach of "natural methods" and "openness to life" in sex at all times. There a huge split between the bishops and the European and North American (at the very least) church members, of course.

turned into a minor little tremor.

turned out to be flatulence.

But hey, Francis gets to look like the Lone Ranger and apologists will use the initial press release to show how loving and tolerant of LBGT people he is.

The Vatican chose him because it knows it needs to change it's image, not because they wanted to change anything else.

But I'm sure if we'd just wait a just a little bit longer everything will be different.

However you choose. We need a broad array of voices in support of an inclusive, diverse community.

people who speak out unreservedly against its institutionalized bigotry are part of the solution. People who are apologists for it, not so much. I think we all know where you fall.

Who the fuck are you to say that?

When have you ever scolded DUers who constantly minimize the damage done by the Catholic Church and its policies?

Apparently atheist critics are supposed to stfu and sit down.

I'd like to see the church get more in step with its parishioners (speaking from a US point of view, which is what I'm familiar with). Many American Catholics support reproductive rights, gender equality, equal rights for GLBT individuals. I want to support those voices.

Criticism is obviously warranted in re: the Vatican bureaucracy. My "broad array of voices" comment was meant to encourage support for rank and file Catholics who share goals common among theists, atheists, agnostics, none of the above, etc.

I had no, nor have, any intent to put you in your place. Our approaches are very different. I don't think yours is very constructive. I could have put it in that context.

And, I realize that many feel it's not worth the effort or it's unrealistic. I get that point. Sometimes I feel it's all besides the point - we're all going to live our lives as we see fit, hopefully. And at times I feel we could work to make that easier - whether from the top down or the bottom up.

I do not know what it's like to be a catholic on DU, I'm sure it must suck to see their White Knight constantly criticized. But, imo, it sucks a lot more for gay DUers to see the guy held up as some sort of poor persecuted pariah.

Francis is NOT a gay rights supporter, he is exactly the opposite, a bigoted hypocrite and politician who uses hate speech to target those who champion human rights while smiling for the camera and asking for "tolerance".

This man (because that's all he is to everyone who is not catholic) has been praised and treated like a saviour on DU since he was appointed. Gay DUers have objected to this dishonest portrayal of someone who believes they are second class human beings. Someone who wants them to stfu because they make his church look bad and his job #1 is to increase revenue. Then, when they have the nerve to voice their opinion on this supposedly progressive forum they are shouted down by his outraged fans. The backlash against them has been so swift and so vicious that some don't post about it anymore.

So, honestly, I don't give a flying fuck if you or anyone thinks my "approach" is constructive.


Is it uncomfortable for a member of DU to read bad things about someone they think is A Really Nice Guy?

Sure.

But it's hardly comparable to being persecuted because you had the misfortune to be born gay in a world dominated by religious leaders who think you suffer from a disorder and need to be kept from marrying the person you love and away from any children you would harm with your disease.

Religious leaders like those in the Vatican who unashamedly use their wealth and power to protect pedophiles and prevent gay people from having the same rights as everyone else.


You will never see me attacking catholic people on DU, what you will see is my very real and very justified outrage at DUers who think the Pope needs to be defended from angry gay people and their supporters.


I shouldn't have to worry about justifying my outrage here, Pope Francis is not a member of DU.

His intolerance of gay people makes this personal so, in my opinion, he deserves every bit of venom directed at him.

Who the fuck are you to lecture me on persecution, exclusion and intolerance? I've seen it. I've experienced it. I've lived through it - no, I've survived through it. Survived.

I make no apologies for anyone but myself. I have no White Knight I feel I should defend or shelter in any way shape or form. Not here on DU or in my life. I am exactly who I am.

To be honest, I don't give a flying fuck about your approach. And I surely don't give a damn about your shallow assessment of me or my interests.

We've probably had some similar experiences along the way. Most of us have. I don't know what else to say.

I didn't know you were gay, I still don't know if you're a catholic and I never accused you of defending anyone. Your criticism was of my approach and I responded.

I made no personal assumptions, please don't make them about me.

There is no judgment here nor will there ever be.

Thanks for the reply. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

(aside) I guess I'm a lapsed catholic, if I had to choose an option. Still have that cultural background. Part of my history.

Still disagree with your approach, though. lol, had to add that coda.

Left the church as a child and never looked back. I was raised without religion -not as an atheist, just without instruction- so I have no reference point when it comes to understanding beliefs. I've been in a constant wtf state about religious fundamentalism for as long as I can remember. I guess it seems naive to wonder why religious people would go to such extremes to force other people to live by their rules.

We're fine, I'm sorry if I misunderstood you as well.

Pointing out the uncomfortable truths in the situation isn't a part of the problem, it's a step towards a solution. The next step is for Catholics themselves to admit these truths and either force change or move to a more enlightened church.

Any DUer who thinks it's more important to defend religion from its critics than to acknowledge its culpability should reconsider their priorities.

We're on a liberal website populated by a lot of progressives, so I have to wonder where people's priorities are when they call us out as part of the problem. Why should religion not be bound by progressive policies? Why does it get a free pass?

I've been assured that that's just not the case.

Most strenuously.

changed. The "voices for change" from within the RCC community have been remarkably ineffective convincing the old men who rule within the RCC to change ANYTHING. For example birth control.

and that the church doesn't reveal SHIT about the universe or our place in it.

Father Tom Doyle (who lost his job because he criticized the Church) had this to say about Crimen solicitationis:

What other policies can the guy change and won't?

But he WILL change everything!

sure.

Why should they be treated differently than heterosexual apologists?

One of which was "disgusting".

There's nothing wrong with calling gay apologists of homophobic policies "disgusting".

I feel the same way about gay republicans who support opponents of same sex marriage.

As was the reply you responded to.

But, since it's his words to defend, I'll simply tell you that whenever skepticscott calls any DUer, gay or straight, an apologist for homophobia, let alone a "disgusting" apologist, you'll need more than a microscope to observe any evidence of truth.

I was on an extended break from DU so unless someone specifies their orientation often I'm probably unaware of it.

It's understandable if gay catholics don't want to bash their church or its leaders, that doesn't make them apologists, imo.

the truth about the Catholic Church?

If so, congratulations!! Sokath...his eyes uncovered!!

'THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS'

I may or may not tack on 'YOU LYING MOTHERFUCKERS' to the end of it. For flavor, you see.

More will follow.

I bet the Pope makes him move to Valletta, where he can live in a 16th. Century fortress with no amenities.

head with facts.

Francis gave Burke a chance to save his butt, and he chose not to take it. This second demotion is in effect the revocation of a suspended sentence. That's why it comes instantly and very publicly on the heels of the synod report.

The folks who have been yattering that Francis is a politician should have paid more attention to their own words. He's turning out to be a very capable one .

"This" certainly can't mean being anti-gay, since the pope and all of his cronies are, too, and it is part of the fundamental doctrine of the RCC, which its apologists and defenders support.

The church is evolving. I agree it should be leading. Yet, evolving is surely better than actively promoting hate.

Did you get that off of an apologist website?

Calling homosexuals "disordered" is "evolving in love"?

And the Catholic Church is actively opposing the right of homosexuals to marry and adopt. You call that "love"? Seriously? And you have the nerve to parade that filth on a progressive web site?

The church under pope Francis is much less hateful then before Pope Francis. Hopefully, it will continue to move toward love and away from hate.

Incidentally, I don't even know where to find an apologist website for the Catholic Church. I do know there are plenty full if hate and vitriol. I am aware how many people cannot take communion without anathema because of the church's current practices.

Despite this, hate is exhausting and accomplishes nothing.

"The church under pope Francis is much less hateful then before Pope Francis."

Has the church suddenly withdrawn all its lawsuits against the rights of women and LGBTs? Does it support gay marriage and adoption, non-discrimination laws, reproductive rights, equality for women, et al? Has it stopped pouring millions of dollars into efforts to not only defeat these campaigns for human rights but to craft legislation that would make such discrimination legal? I consider discrimination & persecution forms of hate. Hate that causes misery, poverty, homelessness, imprisonment and even death. That's what the hate manifested in homophobia and misogyny accomplishes. I'm sure you'll find plenty of folks around here who can rationalize that, even on a supposedly progressive website. I can't. So I'm off to fight the real life misery masquerading as "evolving love".

Much of life is misery. We are born and we die. We get the 'joy' of watching those we love wither away while we are utterly helpless to do anything about it. By all means do what you can to fight injustice. Most of us fight it every day in our own way. It seems to me that is what Pope Francis is attempting now.

Hate is exhausting and unhelpful no matter who is flinging it. This pope has pleasantly surprised me. He has not surprised you, obviously. Perhaps the next synod will change your mind. Perhaps it will sour mine. Time will tell.

Nor will I be tapping my foot waiting for the next synod or in anticipation of the next salvo of misinformation and misdirection from the PR firm. The church has not in any way announced a cease fire in its war against women and gays. Don't try to paint the Pope or the church in the role of victim (or savior) here. Doesn't work with me, I can assure you. I will not tolerate nor enable institutional homophobia and misogyny. Speaking of which, I have some real life battles to attend. Have a nice day.

Ignore him and be welcome.

You're funny.

You are welcome here.

You got me there.

As long as you can ignore the basic human rights of women and LGBTs around the world, shouldn't be any problem at all.

The state, our government, is the protector of our basic human rights. Yet, another reason why we should vote this November. I would not want anyone's rights in the hands of any religion, no matter how loving.

Pope Francis is attempting to move a moribund, hidebound institution away from hate. Admittedly, I get a kick out of that. I also had no expectation anything like this might happen. When progress comes unexpectedly, even when it comes like a snail, it tickles me.

Perhaps this is simply a public relations change. Yet, weigh that one in your mind and savor it a moment. Just a few years ago now, gay marriage was a whip to drive scared, hateful people to the polls. In the days of DOMA's strength, nobody needed any public relations to justify hating. Now, haters need to hide, change or strain incredulity with their convolutions.

Women are still getting the sharp stick. Thank you Hobby Lobby. Yet, this is an illusion, too, I think. The haters scream louder and longer, but we will have the last laugh. Maybe, we will even be able to laugh together.

But don't even try to divorce the church from its political machinations, ones that continue in the form of lobbying and lawsuits and money, to defeat any campaigns for the rights of women and gays. The haters don't need to hide. You can go to the website of the USCCB any day of the week to read their latest screeds and even their promise to double down on their efforts to defeat gay rights. If we have made gains it is DESPITE the continuing efforts of the church. I've spent a lifetime fighting this kind of hate and seeing people destroyed because of it. I'm not laughing.

BTW, Hobby Lobby is not an illusion. I'm sure you're familiar with Legatus.... and who underwrites The Beckett Fund.

Simply saying I don't rely on any church to protect any right. I would think your post agrees with me on that assessment.

They just don't have to fight it. Therein lies the difference.

Churches can be just about everything. For most of my life, most churches have built their dubious power bases on messages of exclusion, creating the delusion that their followers are superior. Throughout history, it seems most religions have acted in similar fashion.

What should be very rarely is what exists.

Then you're not likely to be disappointed.

Catholic and Orthodox room. Welcome my friend!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1264

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1221

after half a dozen or so heads on spikes.

No doubt the scientific station in Antarctica could use a chaplain.

It would be nice if Certain Persons who frequent this group would dial back on."rebuking" liberal Catholics, too, but it'll snow in the Empty Quarter before that happens.

Today I posted in here for the first time in almost two months.

I came to DU back in 2002, and some people are still singing exactly the same three-note tune. I just scroll on past their posts now.

It is as it is.

For years, churches supposedly based on our Lord's love, have lagged behind congregants who are attempting to love their neighbors as they love themselves. How wonderful it would be for all of us if our churches lead the way for the lamb of God again, rather than supporting the hate that tears us all down.

But you don't.

If you had a shred of decency, you'd realize the bigotry you're trying to peddle.
'
But you don't.

If you had a shred of integrity, you wouldn't hide your patent anti-Catholic hatred under the guise of gay rights advocacy.

But you don't.

And I think perhaps you misunderstood the article. This is definitely NOT a good thing for the LGBT community or progressive Catholics.

The pope wants a change. This change will come. It won't be this week; yet, it will not take years either.

Do you have some "other way of knowing"?

From the Pope's words ("hostility to rigidity&quot , his public support for the views of Cardinal Kasper, his twice demotion of Cardinal Burke and his attempts at the synod, I deduce the Pope is moving the Church away from the traditionalists.

I do not claim to have some super power, aka reading the akashic record, if that is the implication of your question.

that was love?

His statements about same sex couples and their advocates are nothing short of hate speech.

has ever listened to its flock.

It is a top down org.

Perhaps if they preach their bigoted views to empty pews in churches with empty coffers they will change what they think God wants.

There never was a synod like this before.

Seems they are sticking with same old, same old.

Bigotry? Misogyny?
So much to choose from.

And willingness to embrace a more loving way. Goodness knows, the church has not tried anything like this before in my lifetime.

As you can tell, there is a wide range of opinions in this group concerning Pope Francis.

Some here see some positive things and are hopeful for significant change, while others are very pessimistic and see little that would give them hope.

I tend to be on the hopeful side and agree that the church has lagged behind it's congregants. I share your wish that churches would lead the way for social justice and civil rights rather than support hate.

Welcome.

I spent time in the principal's office as a young one for informing a priest just where he could go for teaching us non- Christians went to hell, or maybe limbo. I find this pope a great improvement.

It's just not a popular position with some around these parts.

There are others, though, that I agree that this pope is a great improvement.

Didn't think so.

Didn't think so.

In the mean time, you all are welcome over here with us Episcopalians!!