Religion
Related: About this forumWhat is the baddest, most evil thing Satan/Lucifer/the devil has ever done in the Bible?
Well, apart from disobeying God. And asking Jesus tricky questions.
Has he murdered someone or encouraged murder? Has he tortured someone mentally/physically to make a point? Has he impregnated a woman against her will?
rug
(82,333 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Why would you ask a question you CAN answer yourself?
rug
(82,333 posts)I might think twice.
Has he destroyed the world in a flood? Cites? Encouraged war? Oh, wait.....that's that other dude....
brush
(53,787 posts)but aren't you just a little bit afraid of getting struck down by lightning?
I'm still chuckling but I'm trying not to for fear of getting some of the shade that might be coming your way.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)brush
(53,787 posts)Guess you never joked about getting struck down by lightning for doing something God wouldn't like.
"The other dude", the wrathful one, would be sending the lightning.
Get it?
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)For those who might not have been aware.
There are 450,000 churches in the US that are spin doctoring for God every week. Somebody needs to put in a word for Satan now and again.
And let me be clear. The "Grim Reaper" is not Satan. Satan does not represent the Grim Reaper. Satan does not even approve of how he operates. Satan considers the Grim Reaper an amateur hack.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)....and they were fired from the garden center
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,733 posts)CrispyQ
(36,478 posts)LiberalArkie
(15,719 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,289 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)From other perspectives, it could be said that he gave humanity our greatest gift.
LostOne4Ever
(9,289 posts)I love those memes!
Especially the one about the fiddle
trotsky
(49,533 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)or knowledge. So it was more like he snuck ruffies into her drink and had sex with her, but that certainly would be rape in either case.
rug
(82,333 posts)Google "fiat voluntas tua".
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Yeah.... well sometimes mythology and the baggage of theology thats get dumped on top of it are hard to remember entirely.
It's like trying to remember all the details of the Harry Potter series, or keeping all the Hobbit/Middle Earth minutiae straight.
rug
(82,333 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Only for people who think MacBeth is true.
rug
(82,333 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)how would Satan/Lucifer not be the same entity as Yahweh? These religions are only monotheistic if you squint at them.
rug
(82,333 posts)cpwm17
(3,829 posts)God, the Devil, and Jesus are separate gods. The identical type of characters in other religions would be considered gods in those religions.
Monotheism is much cooler than polytheism so Christians claim to be Monotheistic.
rug
(82,333 posts)Some Christians reject Trintarianism and are Unitarian in their belief.
But none of them claim polytheisim, to wit, three gods, let alone consider Satan a god.
You might be thinking of Zorastrianism.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)but in other religions such characters with similar superpowers would be considered gods.
Plus, Jesus and God are separate characters and they are both gods. So that alone makes Christianity polytheistic. No amount of religious handwaving can change the fact that they are separate characters. The Bible treats them as separate, at least the parts I've read.
Matthew 27:46
okasha
(11,573 posts)"And he Word was with God, and the Word was God."
rug
(82,333 posts)These doctrines have been well-known and around for many, many centuries.
After you learn what the Trinity is, regardless of whether you believe it, google "hypostatic union".
exboyfil
(17,863 posts)also unintentionally Satan is pretty cool in Paradise Lost.
Probably his afflictions on Job for direct action.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Lucifer teased God, but God caused Job's suffering.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I'm holding my breath waiting for one of our hosts to show up and reprimand.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)I have to admit, I haven't read the Bible back to back.
The only instances I know of the devil showing up are Jehova's and devil's bet about why Job is so happy and the devil trying to lure Jesus away from Jehova. (The devil being the snake is a later interpretation.)
So, I wondered: Why is Lucifer getting such a bad rap? Some republican politician recently demanded a public nativity scene somewhere because otherwise Satan wins.
Why is Satan considered an evil guy?
What has he done?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)That being said, I was raised in the church and I can't remember satan or lucifer or the devil ever being mentioned except for the one story about Jesus in the garden.
Clearly what you are saying is that the abrahamic god is evil and even the polar opposite (satan) isn't nearly as bad.
Who's giving Lucifer a bad rap, btw? There is a regular poster here who is a satanist and his POV is generally treated with respect, well at least by those who are not rabidly anti-religion.
I have no idea about this demand for a nativity scene to keep satan from winning. Do you have a link?
Anyway, I have no concept of satan, but you apparently do. What exactly is your concept?
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)If you don't know any lines about Satan from the Bible. Fine. But don't charge at ME for asking a question.
I am trying to understand the following: Why is God considered the good guy and Satan is considered the bad guy? Who decided that? And how?
And one satanist poster on a liberal website is not representative of a wider public opinion. Satan this, devil that... 90% of people regard the devil as someone evil. Among Republicans it's 99%, among conservative Christians it's 100%.
Here's the article about the nativity-scene:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/17/michigan-nativity-scene-state-capitol_n_6341800.html
"If we take the nativity-scene down over night, Satan wins!"
Yes, I do have a concept of Satan. I have recently found an interesting theory online and it makes sense to me:
God and Satan are intended as two antagonistic philosophic principles.
God is spiritualism, order, conservation, security.
Satan is materialism, doubt, change, danger.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Well, you seem to have found your answer in the "theory" you posit at the end of your list.
Do you believe in god? In satan? I'm going out on a limb and guess that you don't.
So what you really doing is asking for people to defend their beliefs in these things to you. But you have set them up from the get go by basically saying that god is bad and satan never did anything as bad as god.
Where do you get your statistics about republicans and conservative christians and their views of satan? And since you are posing this ridiculous question on a site that has representatives from neither of those groups, do you have any statistics about progressive/liberals believers and their concept of satan?
Thanks for the link for the other story. Since this is literally a fight between a christian group and a group of satanist, saying "satan wins" is truly what he thinks will happen. Not really a very good example of people throwing around the fear of some nebulous satan.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)It's really weird. Creationists can't talk about creation without badmouthing evolution and you can't seem to approach this without talking about God.
Yeah, I was mocking a little bit in my OP, but I didn't expect people to be THAT sensitive here on DU. (And all those jokes by atheists here are a waste of time either.) I guess, DU is the wrong place to go when trying to reach someone out of a groupthink-bubble.
Last attempt:
Does the devil do evil things in the Bible?
If yes, where can I find these particular stories in terms of chapters and verses?
Can you help me with that or do I really have to go and read that whole thing myself?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Isaiah 45
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -KJV
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." -NIV
And, as the followers of the Abrahamic faiths are wont to remind us endlessly, god created all things, therefore, god created satan, sin, evil, mosquitos, and Dick Cheney.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)God is working his way through the bet with Satan and to prove his faith in Job's enduring allegiance to god, god says 'go ahead man, kill his kids' and Satan kills the seven sons and three daughters of Job to try and make him despair and give up his faith in god.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Are you honestly going to claim that this is not a reference to god?
You brought god into the picture. This entire OP is a challenge to believers to defend god.
Your OP comes across as mocking and not sincere in the least. If you meant it as sincere, then I have completely misread it.
I think you have been around this group enough to know what the hot buttons are and I think you deliberately chose one. To feign surprise at the reaction is pretty funny.
I can't help you in the least. As I said, I wasn't raised with much of a concept of the devil and I have no idea where in the bible you might find those things.
But if you are genuinely curious, I would suggest you read it for yourself. You aren't going to accept anything a believer here says anyway, imo.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)You not being a believer and all, you should be able to provide that answer. But you have no concept of Satan, so I guess in that regard you aren't much help. I hope you realize that you really don't have much of a chance of having any ability to talk about what the Bible says anymore since you have no idea about where he comes up in the Bible.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)the door. Immediately, and enthusiastically. It's bad behavior IMO.
Good thing I'm not a host.
Examples that I sincerely encourage the jury to review:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=169751
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=163603
What happens when the newbie is actively conciliatory after being negative and getting attacked?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=166786
And what happens when the newbie posts a somewhat positive position on religion?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=167852
Compare and contrast.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Definitely shows a pattern. I'm sure the host(s) who is(are) concerned so deeply about respectful behavior and discussion will immediately address the situation. Or not.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And in a place like this, there doesn't seem to be much one can do about it.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Oh no, it's the no true non-believer accusation!!
That's #17, if my playbook is up to date.
You are right, I am no help in answering his completely unanswerable question which he posed already knowing the answer.
Thank you for educating me about my lack of ability to talk about the bible. I already knew that and have never tried to say otherwise.
Hey, why don't you tell him about Job? Don't bother, I know what his response will be - it was really god that did all the bad stuff to job, not satan.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Your responses in this thread reveal a profound ignorance on the topic. If it were actually one of your favorite bible stories, as you have stated, one would think you knew *something* about the basic story.
I'll help you out, here is the wiki synopsis of the Prologue
Prologue on earth and in heaven[edit]
The prologue on earth shows the righteous Job blessed with wealth and sons and daughters. The scene shifts to heaven, where God asks satan (ha-satan, literally "the accuser" for his opinion of Job's piety. Satan answers that Job is pious only because God has blessed him; if God were to take away everything that Job had, then he would surely curse God. God gives Satan permission to take Job's wealth and children, but Job praises God: "Naked I came out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return: the Lord has given, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." God allows satan to afflict his body with boils. Job sits in ashes; his wife prompts him to "curse God, and die," but Job answers: "Shall we receive good from God and shall we not receive evil?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job#Prologue_on_earth_and_in_heaven
So to have at all comprehended this "all time fav bible story" one would at the least know that god and satan were playing a game using Job. That is the core of the story. Is Job truly pious? That is the challenge over which the game is played. Job is a pawn in this game between god and satan. Both god and satan can be held accountable (but by who?) for the massive harm that is inflicted on Job and his family.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Framing of the question was biased, but LIKE THAT NEVER HAPPENS AROUND HERE, AMIRITE?
Ignore the badgers, stay for the fun. There is fun, at times. No worries.
edhopper
(33,587 posts)I guess I am a satanist, at least philosophically.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If at some point a god resembling the god of Abraham is somehow proven to be real, I've already analyzed enough of his claimed nonsense to know I could never lend it my allegiance.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Gallup found that "belief in the devil has increased from 55% in 1990 to 70% in 2004."
http://www.gallup.com/poll/11770/eternal-destinations-americans-believe-heaven-hell.aspx
Your experiences and beliefs are clearly in the minority here.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)Probably because we have so many living examples of "evil" in our midst these days... many rely on anecdotal evidence so this poll finding makes plenty of sense.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Really? I find that hard to believe.
I also find it hard to believe that one is raised in a Christian church and did not have a concept of Satan.
And you really should read Paradise Lost. It's incredible and, for the time period, paints the dark angel in a surprisingly sympathetic light.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It was taught to me as allegory and I referred to it later at a particularly difficult time in my life. I have never had any real concept of satan. Bad shit happens.
You can find anything you want hard to believe. You have already dismissed the kind of church I was raised in, even though there are many out there.
Thanks for the book referral. I might get to it. I enjoy fiction with religious themes.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Are you really trying to tell me that Job is one of your favorite stories and that you have no concept of Satan or where he shows up in the Bible? What version of the story of Job did you read?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Well we know how this is going to go.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The answers to your questions are mind-boggling.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I am not a believer. I dabbled in belief briefly during my late adolescent, but it wasn't there for me.
I was brought up in a church and household where stories from the bible were told as stories. They were discussed as allegory and metaphor and places from which one could derive lessons and start conversations.
Don't question my experience. I don't have a concept of god and I don't have a concept of satan. Bad shit happens. Good shit happens. It's how you deal with it that is important.
And you can park your sarcasm. Hope being civil isn't straining you too much.
I found a fabulous picture of a militant atheism the other day. He looked like his head was about to explode.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)I swear, if it ain't a Poe, what else could it be?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe
oh shit, sorry, I got stuck in a recursion.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Makes me wonder if "poe" and "troll" can be used synonymously.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)to try and instantly dismiss someone and anything they have to say.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)phil89
(1,043 posts)That hideous story because satan is in it. And God is every bit as bad in his torture of job. Odd story to enjoy.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)In my opinion, it is a great story. It's suspenseful, full of amazing imagery, heartbreaking and when it seems most hopeless, there is hope. Life is hard - that's the first tenet of Buddhism and that is the basic tenet of Job.
Suck it up. Don't imagine you can understand or make sense of what it happening to you. You will most likely survive and you will most likely learn a great deal during the process.
I turned to it at a point in my life when I thought there was no hope.
It's not an odd story to enjoy, it's a great story.
Are there any biblical stories that you enjoy or have gained from?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Because they are all killed for pretty much no reason at all.
(And the servants deaths come at the hands of 'the fire of god' so, nobody lays their deaths at satans feet, like they do with the sons and daughters.)
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)You are so wrong. The only life that matters in this story is that of the Patriarch Job. His wives and children and slaves are no more important than his goats. Plus it gives important medical advice on how to treat skin diseases: use a shard and start scraping.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)it might be, for example, that a batshit crazy psycho-deity and his side-kick/alter-ego are just fucking with you.
edhopper
(33,587 posts)they don't have to worship God.
To some this is the worst sin imaginable.
The stuff God does is never bad cause God did it. It's like what Nixon said about the Presidency, if the President does it , it can't be illegal.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Did I get that right?
I am speaking about the people who actually believe in Satan. His great sin is to not worship God.
And they also usually excuse any dark act by God.
Because if God did it, it can't be wrong.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)That may look similar, but it's really not the same thing.
But you continue to push that lame meme that religious believers will excuse anything religious. You need new shoes.
p.s. are you related to the OP? You have similar styles.
edhopper
(33,587 posts)I was talking about Fundamentalists and Born-Agains who believe Satan is real and has had an active role in things.
The bad things I was referring to are those events in the Bible, like killing the first born or genocide, rape and slavery.
But I understand the mistake since other threads have discussed different ideas. I was responding to one thing with out delineating it.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)You have a very bad habit of talking about believers as a monolith. Frankly, I think that actually represents your POV.
But since there really are distinctions to be made and there really are good liberal/progressive religious believers that post here, delineation seems critical.
Otherwise it just appears intolerant and rather prejudiced.
We are all on the same team when it comes to republicans and the religious right. Let's define them and, with the religious left, attack together.
edhopper
(33,587 posts)I was talking about people who actually believed in Satan.
I never said what percentage of people do.
I really don't talk about believers as a monolith, except for their having belief.
You just want me to leave the beliefs alone if they are like minded in other areas.
That is your agenda. I choose to look at beliefs where ever they come from.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and to stop the divisiveness pursued by those who are supposedly on the same side but see the need to attack others simply because they believe in a god.
Yep, that's the ticket.
You choose to challenge beliefs and believers even if their beliefs are the motivators for accomplishing shared goals.
How that working for you?
it leads to the discussions that I am interested in.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I think that is because you respond a lot.
You seem to be very interested in my views on religion.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)And I greatly appreciate that you are civil in your discussions and don't seem to have an agenda about me personally.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Are you accusing ed of using a sock poppet? That is really not conducive to discussion. Don't attack the person, attack the idea.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)You're accusing ed of having a sock here? That's pretty shitty.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Like, where did that accusation even come from. WHY would he have a sock?
I am cornfuzed.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I didn't accuse anyone of having a sock. I am familiar with both of these individuals. I noted that they have similar styles and asked if they were related. It was, at worst, tongue in cheek.
It's the gross distortion of what I say that is really pretty shitty. But you probably don't see that.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)*humorously* implying they were socks. OIC.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Where the hell did Dawkins come from? Ease up, cbayer. Geez.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)is a bit of a hot button for somebody who is allegedly not a believer.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Rather rude to dismiss one of the most complex questions about Christian theology and the role of Satan as "flamebait."
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Every time it's been brought up for 2000 years.
They simply don't wanto talk about it, because to do so would force them to recognize and accept the fatal flaws fucking up the entire premise.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)The most simple analysis of the Garden of Eden story and the serpent (assumed to be Satan by most, I believe) is that in the end, the serpent TOLD THE TRUTH.
God said they would die if they ate of the tree. The serpent said they wouldn't. Point goes to serpent.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)They also became fully human, and no longer the one-dimensional creature they started out as.
Fundamental to our existence is the matter of choice. God (or whatever) can't create us to think independently because that would, pretty much by definition, mean we were not independent. We must choose it.
And that doesn't mean an agent (like a snake) can't help us make that choice.
I don't buy into this mythology as history any more than you do, but mythology breaks down complex moral and philosophical points to the basics that can be understood on many levels and give insights into the belief system.
Milton was big on that. Really big on that.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)it is a theological question in the religion forum.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I mean, just a suggestion.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)that post are you? The jury decided to leave it 0-7.
You think I should take suggestions from you about how to behave in this group? You can not possibly be serious.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)My point is that for someone who has talked about having a better tone in here (not something that comes from me a lot, btw), you might want to actually try see what this person has to say and have a conversation rather than just come out with "this is flamebait" as your first salvo.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)But gee, this post of yours sounds a lot like the alert. Perhaps it was a group effort.
I know this person and I think I am pretty clear on his agenda.
It looks like complete flame bait to me and I called it that. Don't nanny me, particularly if you do little to improve the tone. FTR, "Nannying" is #32 in the playbook.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I didn't alert on that post. I did alert the one that got rug his hide. I did alert one of 5 posts that stone space got hidden (don't remember which one exactly at this point but I kept the message so I can look it up if you need to know).
Hopefully in your Schrodinger's knowing/not knowing of the Bible, you came across the plank in your own eye bit. You do know that if you stopped being nanny to everyone here, the calling out of the bullshit you did would stop. It's the hypocrisy we are pointing out.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)really similar to your post. I will share it with you if you want and I think you will be amazed at how similar they are.
You don't have to explain alerts to me. You are welcome to alert on anything you want, as is anyone else.
As I said, I made the nanny comment on purpose because it is #32 in the playbook of all the horrible things cbayer does and says.
The calling out of the "bullshit" I do will never stop, because it doesn't matter what I do or say. It will be distorted and repeated for years.
You (plural) will never back down, but you (singular) could choose not to be a part of it.
Honestly, I don't foresee that happening. Too much at stake.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Many of us want to actually DISCUSS religious belief and the implications of it, and its impact in the world - in a manner that might not always praise and celebrate how wonderful it is.
You seem to be viscerally opposed to that. This thread is a classic example. You just KNOW what someone really means. You launch right into attacking them for what YOU perceive their question to be. That really makes this group, and DU, suck.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You don't get to decide what can or cannot be posted in this group. You don't have mind-reading powers that let you judge others and condemn them with a first strike. Look at this thread and you can see there were multiple responses to the OP that expressed appreciation for the question being asked. Are you going to berate all of them?
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)It's the crusade for commonality!
And what you don't hold in common with me must not be discussed in MY room!
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)You go from thread to thread nannying atheists who have crossed your lines, handing out admonishments and warnings and scoldings. You rarely if ever actually discuss an issue here.
Rainforestgoddess
(436 posts)I hope someone with a lot of biblical knowledge takes it seriously and answers.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)A friend of mine did his doctoral dissertation on Satan in the New Testament. Now, I'll have to actually read it. Damn.
d_r
(6,907 posts)Revalations
He tries to talk Jesus in to not being crucified to save us all
Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)That declaration is the actual crime for which the angel Lucifer is said to have been cast out of Heaven.
edhopper
(33,587 posts)Last edited Thu Dec 18, 2014, 01:21 PM - Edit history (1)
and try to be clear.
For those who believe in Satan, that he is real and a force of evil, the worst thing he did was stop worshiping God.
For a certain strain of Christianity, not giving yourself to God is the biggest sin. all else can be forgiven.
The bad things you mention which we can attribute to God in the Bible are excused because if God does it it cannot be wrong, it is just not possible for us mere humans to understand it.
If God deems it necessary to cause genocide, rape and the death of innocent children, who are we to question it.
Again this is the ideas of a part of Christianity who believe Satan as a real entity. (rather than a concept to be interpreted)
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)christians think.
And you use the 1st person plural in describing it as well
.. over and over and over again.
That's really curious.
Are you an official spokesperson or something?
edhopper
(33,587 posts)The ones I have spoken to or have seen and heard their beliefs.
Some of this stuff is all over YouTube, if you are interested.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I know that some people hold the views that you put forward. I do not think that all those who belief in satan hold those views.
It's all about the ability to make distinctions and delineations, as we discussed.
edhopper
(33,587 posts)an answer to his question about believers in Satan and what he did wrong.
You seem to have a problem with my answer, mainly because you want to make it what it was not.
But such is the nature of this.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Are you denying that there are no Christian sects that believe what he said?
The sin of Lucifer was that he wouldn't serve God anymore. So he got kicked out. As Milton points out in Paradise Lost (which, honestly, is the source for what most people think they "know" about Lucifer), Lucifer then got a little pissed that God would turn his back on his first creation (angels) in favor of his new pet of the day, humans. That's why he goes and fucks with Adam.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)something really bad about it, but I think you can do it.
He is not clear who he is talking about. All christians? Christians who believe in Satan? He uses we and us over and over again, but there is a real lack of clarity as to who he is speaking for.
I like the story you present. It wasn't an important part of what I was raised with.
I guess I see the "devil" in very allegorical terms - impulses to do the wrong thing, which we all have, of course. The stories I know fit that picture and the story makes sense. One is most likely to do the wrong thing when one feels hurt or scorned by someone important to them. At least that is true for me.
edhopper
(33,587 posts)several times, you choose to see something different in my answers.
So it goes.
pinto
(106,886 posts)Agree, it's allegorical yet on point in many ways. (I guess that's the neatest knack of allegory).
cbayer
(146,218 posts)We each have our wounded child and s/he must be monitored for misbehavior.
Last edited Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:25 AM - Edit history (1)
I think you meant to say that he has some really clear ideas of what christians are taught, but it would have probably been a lot harder to shoehorn much snark into your response that way.
His interpretation is pretty consistent with my remembered christian education, as I'm sure it is with many others'.
Looking through this thread, it's pretty clear who's got a firm grasp on lore and who doesn't.
Aside: Woody Allen had a hilarious piece regarding the Job story that appeared, IIRC, in The NewYorker decades ago (god twists Job's nose until it looks like a Molly screw, Job doesn't even know what "kine" are, etc.) You should look it up.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Think for yourself.
edhopper
(33,587 posts)and decide for yourself. Don't ask others about it.
You know for someone who makes pronouncements of what the origins of all parts of the Bible and other myths are, it's intersting that you dismiss asking if any one has knowledge of a question.
okasha
(11,573 posts)I expect students to read the assignment, not try to get others to do their work for them. Critical thinking, and all that.
edhopper
(33,587 posts)just reading the Bible, will give you the answer to the OPs question?
It's a long book, since he is only interested in the passages about Satan, perhaps you could list all the parts of the Bible that only deal with him.
That would be a more realistic "assignment" than reading the whole damn thing.
okasha
(11,573 posts)edhopper
(33,587 posts)much better than the snarky, condescending one you first posted.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)for clarification, your reply to them would be?
okasha
(11,573 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)where questions weren't allowed? Or where students weren't allowed to answer their peers' questions?
This all depends, of course, on everyone's having prepped the assignment.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)I asked this because you have avoided a direct answer to my question which was; would you answer their questions.
I was just wondering if you would respond by telling them to do their own homework and not expect others to do it for them- as you did here? I guess I got my answer in an indirect way.
Btw, handing out assignments does not a teacher make.
okasha
(11,573 posts)In college and university teaching, it's generally considered preferable for the instructor to be a facilitator rather than a dispenser of pat answers. On matters of fact and background, of course I answered questions. On matters of interpretation, I considered any conclusion the student could support from the text to be correct and encouraged them to learn from each other's viewpoints.
It's a pretty standard approach, actually.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)weren't as trite and snarky as your answers have been to some of the people you have responded to here.
You have a good evening now.
okasha
(11,573 posts)deserved the responses they got.
Que ya tengas buenas noches.
Response to okasha (Reply #168)
notadmblnd This message was self-deleted by its author.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Some of my favorites
James 1:26 ESV /
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
Titus 3:2-7 ESV /
To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
James 4:12 ESV / 1,177
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
Romans 2:1-3 ESV /
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O manyou who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourselfthat you will escape the judgment of God?
Ephesians 4:29 ESV /
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
Romans 14:1-13 ESV /
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Ciao
okasha
(11,573 posts)My holy book is John Britt's Glazing and Firing at Cone 10.. The only gods it mentions are the kiln gods/goddess.
Response to okasha (Reply #207)
notadmblnd This message was self-deleted by its author.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Talking about Huck Finn and a kid is like "How does Tom Sawyer fit into all this" and I was like "Read the fucking book."
I didn't, really. And that question did really happen either. But at least I know how I should respond next time something like that comes up.
rug
(82,333 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I think this should be the reply of everyone to you from now on.
LostOne4Ever
(9,289 posts)[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]I find his views on things like this fascinating.
Probably, because I had those thought myself at one time. My posts in this thread have been half in jest, but I really do think this is an interesting subject.
[font style="font-family:'Brush Script MT',''Lucida handwriting','forte',cursive;" size=5 color=crimson]Lucifer[/font], aka the light bringer, aka the morning star, just makes more sense to me as a good guy fighting against a tyrannical demiurge. It brings new meaning to the section talking about the way being narrow and few travel it (Mathew 7 iirc?).
Christianity is the largest religion in the world today, how can the way be narrow under that condition? But if all Christianity is being deceived into worshiping the evil god and defaming the good god trying to free them? Wouldn't that result in the way to salvation being traveled by the few?
Not to mention, the question about the nature of [font style="font-family:'Brush Script MT',''Lucida handwriting','forte',cursive;" size=5 color=crimson]good and evil[/font] in the bible. Does morality come from said god, or does it go beyond him? Genesis says we know the difference between good and evil, so what does it mean when god commits evil acts? If morality comes from god does that mean god thinks his own actions in the bible are evil? If it goes beyond him doesn't that mean that he might actually be evil?
Of course, even in this light, the bible still has issue after issue (no evidence and many contradictions for example), but the actions of YWHW makes more sense (to me)if we see him as the bad guy. Of course, this line of thinking is probably the height of blasphemy to many believers.
But I can't help but entertain such thoughts.[/font]
cbayer
(146,218 posts)He is probably the person who could actually, honestly answer this question.
I think this whole thing falls apart when one tries to make a black and white distinction between good and evil. Sometimes good is done for evil reasons and sometimes evil is done for good reasons, and rarely is something really pure.
I started to watch the movie Noah last night. I'm not really getting into it, but I thought it was interesting that the premise is that god has to destroy the world because humans have messed it up so badly. There seems to be a global warming corollary there.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Honestly, I come to much the same conclusions as Prophet 451, with the exception of, I do not invest faith in the existence of satan either. Otherwise, our takeaways from the bible are much the same.
LostOne4Ever
(9,289 posts)Especially those with pro-environmental message. Its kinda surprising to me how well some of those stories are handled, especially given that I am used to how that type of story is handled by the US film industry.
In fact, I am convinced that when I was a kid the US film industry did everything they could to make any pro-environmental movie or show as preachy and intolerable as possible. If what you say is true I hope Noah (haven't seen it) is a step in the opposite direction.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I generally like this kind of epic tale, but this one isn't really grabbing me.
Never heard of Captain Planet and the Planeteers, but it looks like a big dud.
I remember many of my childhood shows having a positive environmental message.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)I'm not sure if satan was a healer. I have always heard of him as a troublemaker, not a healer.
LostOne4Ever
(9,289 posts)[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Wouldn't it make more sense for a malevolent being to try and make people think it is the good one and the benevolent being is the evil one?
Besides, the tao that you know is not the true Tao.[/font]
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)generosity, compassion, non-violence, trust, etc is the correct path to self-awareness. "To know thyself is divine", not in Randian concept, but as a knowledge of true self, higher self. To know the true Tao, one would need to know their true self.
Manipulating others to believe that which is true is a lie and that which is a lie is true is on the slippery slope to evil. I'm not sure if an actual god-being or satan-being exists, I highly doubt that. I'm still in the process of "losing my religion" in order to find truth. We are not supposed to create an image of god, according to the bible. I strongly suspect god/devil are archetypes or energy patterns symbolizing the yin-yang concept in a less balanced, more emotionally charged package.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)It shows the deep dishonesty of some posters here, their desire to shut down actual discussions about religion and keep this forum a shit flinging orangutan cage.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)now to find some place to use it.
pinto
(106,886 posts)As in "pride goeth before the fall".
The story goes along these lines, iirc - Satan rose an army of angels to overthrow god's rule in heaven. He led a third of the total in heaven into an epic battle. They lost and the third in revolt were cast out of heaven to hell. Yet, they were not mortal so continued an existence in exile, as it were. In recourse, Satan brought pride to god's favored - the mortals, Adam and Eve - in the form of the apple, from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It's portrayed as a devious end run on the maxim that the fruit should not be eaten. Adam and Eve were caused to leave the Garden of Eden and make their own way in the world of good and evil.
Ancient Greeks, Jews and Muslims have similar tales. I've found them interesting.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I just did a little research and found out that Satan means "the accuser" or "the prosecutor" in Hebrew.
Seems his primary role in the stories is in challenging god, sometimes by messing with humans.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)So, I think I can only move forward thinking she would get no allusion at all.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)The rapper OR Scooby's friend?
I call bullshit. Smells like Poe, through and through.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)and it explains how Satan became the bad guy. It's also pretty much what they taught me in Sunday School.
Somewhere down below I'll put another idea out.
WovenGems
(776 posts)"There ain't no devil, that's just God when he's drunk".
Heddi
(18,312 posts)derail it.
THIS is the kind of conversation this group needs. Questions about religion, about beliefs, about why we believe or don't believe what we do.
Back when I went to church and did all that hoo-ha, it seemed to me that (as others have pointed out), the biggest thing about Satan is that he defied God. He didn't just do the "blind obedience" thing like God wants.
God said not to eat from the tree of knowledge---bad things would happen. Well, self-awareness happened. Independent thought happened. Questioning authority happened. The narrative is that Satan "tempted" Eve (who then "tempted" Adam) to do the bad thing that would get them banished from paradise forever. But tempted? Is tempted and encouraged the same thing? Tempted to gain knowledge vs being a mindless drone who just does what they're told to do.
I really hope that you're not dissuaded by the nastiness upthread by a poster who holds herself as the Queen of Kumbyah (except when she isn't). This is a great question and I know many of us are glad to see this type of discussion here. Sure beats the endless articles about how awful non-believers are and how super-duper the Pope is.
iscooterliberally
(2,860 posts)Made damn sure that Pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate.
Great question btw! Thanks for this post.
pinto
(106,886 posts)Have fun all.
Heddi
(18,312 posts)when it clearly wasn't. It's a discussion about one of the cornerstones of Christian theology--Satan is bad, God is Good. But why is Satan bad? What did he do to earn the reputation as being the polar opposite of God. For all the good that God is, Satan is equally evil. Why?
I think many people have made some very interesting comments here, yourself included.
But what was not interesting, not warranted, was Cbayer charging in and accusing the OP of flamebait FOR NO REASON. She says she knows his history therefore questions his motivations....really? Like THAT adds to the discussion. No links, no proof. Just her intimate "knowledge" of someone else's purpose for posting a thread that, for all intents and purposes, fits the SOP of this group TO A TEE.
So maybe you should PM your friend and suggest she cool her jets when accusing others (who really don't ever post in this group at all) from being flame-baity trolls (and casually implying that they are a sock of another poster) for no reason.
The OP wasn't dogging on God. The OP wasn't trashing Christianity. The OP is asking a question that I'm sure every serious theologian has asked at one time or another. So why the nasty response from her?
Any derailment of this thread lies squarely on HER shoulders. Remove her subthread, and her nasty accusations towards and about others, and you have, well, a pretty pleasant thread with pretty pleasant replies that does not deviate ONE IOTA from the SOP of this group.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Heddi
(18,312 posts)and EXACTLY the kind of thing that so many hosts of religion (former, current, wanna-be, etc) always wag their finger at Atheists for engaging in yet NEVER chide their own for doing.
PURE disruption in this thread FOR NO REASON other than SHE didn't like it for some reason THEREFORE it's flame-bait. The OP is a poe. The OP is edhopper's sock (no no, not a sock. I mean they write the same so they're probably related, because we all know that writing style on an internet forum is genetic in nature). She knows the OP's history and questions their motiviations. She's a preacher's daughter who has never heard of Satan. Her favourite story is Job but doesn't recall this crazy Satan guy in there at all.
Pure 100% horse-shit behaviour on her part.
But will the hosts admonish HER for making this group unwelcome to newcomers? Will the hosts publically call HER out as they have done to you, and to I, and to Skeptiscott (just the other day, but it wasn't a call out, it was a post to everyone even though it was directed squarely at Skeptiscott) and to all the other A/A posters here?
I'd hold my breath, but I don't feel like being hypoxic this early in the day
cbayer
(146,218 posts)This has turned out to be an interesting thread and I may have jumped the gun in judging it (and you).
As I have no real concept of the satan character, it has forced me to do some research and to read some of these posts carefully.
Although I can't tell you I know of every reference to this character in the bible, it seems like satan's main role is in challenging god and often using humans, who he knows god loves, to do that.
That's a great allegorical tale about hate and anger and revenge.
It's almost an oedipus tale, though the father seems to survive the attempts to kill him.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)As would apologies to everyone else you jumped on for pointing out that you were jumping the gun in judging the thread AND DetlefK.
Heddi
(18,312 posts)I MAY have jumped the gun.
Never actually says "hey, sorry for derailing your thread."
just that she MAY have jumped the gun. She's not sure yet. There is a possibility that the gun was jumped appropriately. She'll let you know later.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Here is how you could have actually apologized:
"I'm sorry for my bullshit post up-thread where I accused you of posting flame-bait and subsequently inferred that you were a sock-puppet of another poster here. That was wrong. I will try my best to not do something as embarrassingly awful as that again".
edhopper
(33,587 posts)and Christians, I will accept your apology.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)but I am far from apologizing to all atheists and christians.
Heddi
(18,312 posts)You suggested that you should do it, then actually didn't. So you haven't actually apologized to anyone in this thread.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)pinto
(106,886 posts)They want an update.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)God is putting up a good fight, but you know how tricky that Satan can get.
pinto
(106,886 posts)Discussion has become divisive and extremely personal among members of the group. Thanks for your understanding.
(aside) I've made some posts in the thread and that is apparent to the host team. Consensus is to lock this discussion.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And that right there is where this shitshow should end.
Response to cleanhippie (Reply #167)
darkangel218 This message was self-deleted by its author.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)( that the thread needed to be unlocked )
Never mind, you did. I misread your post.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Never been big on the idea if hell though.
goldent
(1,582 posts)Cheers was a TV comedy about a group of characters who hung out in a bar.
One of the characters was a psychology researcher. On one episode, somehow a machine used in animal studies was brought into the bar. The machine would offer a peanut, but when you took the peanut you would get a horrible electrical shock. It was explained that animals would soon learn that even though they really wanted that peanut, it wasn't worth the shock they would get, so they would just ignore it.
There were two other characters in the bar (Norm and Cliff) who were intrigued with the machine and would periodical try to get the peanut. They would get the peanut, but each time would get a shock. The shock would put them off a while, but they would try to think of some way to get the peanut without the shock and try again. But it was no use, they would always get another shock. Of course the joke was that lab animals would quickly learn to ignore the machine, but these men could not help themselves, they would just keep trying.
It was a great joke, because it worked as different levels.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,321 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil#Apocrypha.2FDeuterocanon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Enoch
Various aspects of Christianity have taken things from the grey area of the Apocrypha. That 'War in Heaven' reference is to Revelation 12; whether Revelation is intended as a description of what had already happened, of a prediction of what would happen in some future, or whether the author was in no fit state to tell the difference, is up to the reader. But that could be taken either as saying the Devil has already been cast out of heaven for rebelling; or that the Devil is still in heaven, and won't get cast out until the Apocalypse.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)Creating death.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)that was all part of the plan. Jesus, unlike Eve, couldn't be tempted.
But, that doesn't make Eve a worse person than Jesus-- she was created in perfect innocence and knowledge seemed like a great gift at the time. And it was. Jesus knew what was up and being given a king-o-the-world crown wasn't in the plan.
I can't speak for Judaism, which is where this all started, but Christianity has never been comfortable with a concept of duality-- good is meaningless without evil, and so they are coequal. Yin and Yang. Satan was an archangel who went bad, and never an equal to God, so Christian mythology can never fully accept Satan as an equal.
A duality was hinted at in Genesis, and to some extent in Milton, and shows up in some Christian writings, but just never got mainstream. An enormous mythology about the second creation, descent into hell, and other things derived from a couple of OT verses changed Satan from a mild antagonist to God (the protagonist) to the sworn enemy of God and all that is good.
Some bad horror movies haven't helped the situation. Nor did Dante.
The OT doesn't have name for hell, as far as I know, and Satan doesn't seem to have much to do in the OT, except for Job and a few other morality tales, so I'll wait for a rabbi to show up and explain more about that.
Myself, I go for the duality-- if there is a god, there must be a devil or there is stasis and no point to being God. Movement and change is the result of two opposing forces. Maybe more, but at least two.
Heddi
(18,312 posts)I mean, who else but Satan?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)...to view Satan/Lucifer/the devil as a congruous figure.
He's a character that has developed over the course of at least 2,500 years; so much more modern descriptions of him are not especially similar to those recorded in the older books of the Bible.
In the Jewish tradition, "Satan"--the Adversary--isn't necessarily a devil or a demon consigned to Hell. He's more like a prosecuting attorney in the ongoing trial to determine mankind's worthiness of God's favor. In that context, it is isn't wholly surprising that, for a "bad guy", Satan is a pretty benign Old Testament figure. In Job--his most significant appearance--he simply issues a challenge, while God's the one getting his hands all bloody.
Lucifer, whole "War in Heaven" schtick, and his conflation with the Old Testament Satan are largely Christian inventions. So much of the "bad" shit the devil does hasn't happened so much as it is predicted to happen.
Given the New Testament's demonstrated predictive powers, we can safely assume it won't happen, either.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)"participation in the slaughter of Job's family and the torture of Job with Yahweh" attributed to Lucifer. Really one has to conclude that Yahweh is the more evil of the two. Unless of course one wants to assert and defend the proposition that good is defined by what Yahweh does.
okasha
(11,573 posts)He has several books on the subject of personified evil.
The book responsible for the prevalent idea of Satan isn't the Bible at all. It's Dante's Inferno.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)I actually worship Satan. I'm a Luciferian Satanist, which means I worship Lucifer as the justified rebel against a tyrannical god. Discounting Job (which I regard as propaganda for god), the worst Satan does is ask Jesus a few tricky questions and gift humanity with the capacity for moral self-determination. He guides us to eat the apple, giving us the knowledge of good and evil, the capacity to make our own decisions about morality, to go from "thou shalt not" to "I will not".
It is god who keeps the threat of hell hanging over us (although, as Lucifer's realm, it's not as bad as it's made out to be). It is god who wants to keep us wide-eyed pets. It is god who refuses to respect us as thinking, feeling beings who deserve regard just for that. It is god who demands we kiss his ass, spending every day worshiping him for not casting us into hell right this moment. It is god who treats humanity as a battered spouse.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It gives me a better understanding of where you are coming from.
I can't say that I fully get it, but I think I get a little of it.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)They do some stuff, and then people/angels/etc. interpret some those things as good, evil, etc.