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Somebody wants to discuss transhumanism for christmas. (Original Post) Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 OP
Is that a religion? n/t trotsky Dec 2014 #1
Well, not exactly, but ... rogerashton Dec 2014 #2
Well it isn't actually a joke in some aspects, nor is it just woo when one considers Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #8
... LostOne4Ever Dec 2014 #36
it might be - some skeptics have an allergy to it as "future woo" and Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #4
Anyone with even a passing understanding/interest in traumatic brain injury ought to be informed AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #12
The studies of people who have had their corpus callosum severed Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #13
Well I wouldn't go that far. eom rogerashton Dec 2014 #24
I know for a fact that my radio LTX Dec 2014 #46
Can you remove a single transistor, and alter the content in a consistent, predictable manner? AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #48
I can alter a radio to make a theremin, LTX Dec 2014 #52
Oh wait, I know what it is now. trotsky Dec 2014 #37
I note that despite my gift the one who tossed that herring has not made an arrival. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #38
From what I understand- notadmblnd Dec 2014 #3
Santa was the first transhuman? Kalidurga Dec 2014 #5
ah, no. notadmblnd Dec 2014 #6
I'm game. Sup? AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #7
Yeah I mention prosthetics upthread too. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #9
If we could put Santa's brain into a computer edhopper Dec 2014 #10
So all the kids in north korea get screwed. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #11
NK edhopper Dec 2014 #14
Kurzweillian Singularity? NeoGreen Dec 2014 #15
That is where TH meets woo head on. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #16
Isn't the Singularity concept... NeoGreen Dec 2014 #17
No it is the point in time where machine consciousness transcends human consciousness. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #18
I have come to understand the the Kurtzweil Singularity (KS)... NeoGreen Dec 2014 #19
Wiki and I agree. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #20
So, does the KS become a subsitute for.. NeoGreen Dec 2014 #21
I don't know what anyone means by "god". Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #22
Yeah... NeoGreen Dec 2014 #23
John G. Messerly does. rug Dec 2014 #25
Why is Wilson edhopper Dec 2014 #26
He was promulgating "scientific" racism. rug Dec 2014 #27
I was aware of those others edhopper Dec 2014 #33
You'll have to show me where edhopper Dec 2014 #41
Wilson's sociobiology, advocaing for biodeterminsm, dovetailed with Jensen, Shockley et al. rug Dec 2014 #42
So.... why did you post it? AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #28
I didn't. But since you asked . . . . rug Dec 2014 #29
Is Transhumanism Messerly's invention? AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #35
Can you cite any racist remarks made by Wilson? Jim__ Dec 2014 #30
It's far from offhand remarks. You'll get the flavor even from this, a very flattering profile: rug Dec 2014 #31
I'm not asking about inferences drawn by other people. Jim__ Dec 2014 #32
The WSJ article has a free pass key at the link. It may work. rug Dec 2014 #34
I am asking for any statement by Wilson that indicates he is a racist. Jim__ Dec 2014 #39
Do you have a nonracist interpretation of “democratically contrived eugenics"? rug Dec 2014 #40
Yes. Have you read the context of that remark? Jim__ Dec 2014 #43
Yes, that's the page number I posted. rug Dec 2014 #44
You may want to re-read it. Jim__ Dec 2014 #45
What is explicit is eugenics. rug Dec 2014 #49
Yes. And he's arguing against eugenics. Jim__ Dec 2014 #50
Sorry, Jim, "democratically contrived" eugenics remains eugenics. rug Dec 2014 #51
"... evolutionary theory also favors diversity in the gene pool as a cardinal value." Jim__ Dec 2014 #53
Yes, I can read as well as you. rug Dec 2014 #54
He isn't. Jim__ Dec 2014 #55
Does he oppose it? rug Dec 2014 #56
I hesitate to say. After all, you can read as well as I can. Jim__ Dec 2014 #57
In that case, since he posited it, I'll assume he endorses it. rug Dec 2014 #58
What he posited for eugenics is: not now, not ever. Jim__ Dec 2014 #60
A rather unfair assessment of a remarkable evolutionary biologist. n/t LTX Dec 2014 #47
Well, looks like rug successfully disrupted yet another thread... Humanist_Activist Dec 2014 #59

rogerashton

(3,920 posts)
2. Well, not exactly, but ...
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 06:23 PM
Dec 2014

The usual resource can be relied on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

Transhumanism (abbreviated as H+ or h+) is an international cultural and intellectual movement with an eventual goal of fundamentally transforming the human condition by developing and making widely available technologies to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities.


This is sort of a joke -- at least I think it is -- but I have said that the transhumanist view on drugging in sports is that if you won't take the dope you need to win then you don't deserve to win.

Not exactly a religion but seems to address some of the same issues.
 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
8. Well it isn't actually a joke in some aspects, nor is it just woo when one considers
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 07:00 PM
Dec 2014

the rapid progress in limb replacement technology, and the interesting experiments in 3d organ printing. There is serious stuff going on, there is also a lot of bullshit.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
4. it might be - some skeptics have an allergy to it as "future woo" and
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 06:49 PM
Dec 2014

theists generally want the whole subject to go away as it assumes that consciousness is material and not some divine blessing.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
12. Anyone with even a passing understanding/interest in traumatic brain injury ought to be informed
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 07:14 PM
Dec 2014

enough to understand that our consciousness rises from entirely material organs.

I'd go so far as to call it willful stupidity to pretend otherwise.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
13. The studies of people who have had their corpus callosum severed
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 07:22 PM
Dec 2014

are pretty much the nail in the coffin of non-materialism.

LTX

(1,020 posts)
46. I know for a fact that my radio
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 01:17 PM
Dec 2014

independently generates all of the content that comes out of it because it broke last week and now nothing comes out of it.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
48. Can you remove a single transistor, and alter the content in a consistent, predictable manner?
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 01:24 PM
Dec 2014

If not, then the analogy is bullshit.

LTX

(1,020 posts)
52. I can alter a radio to make a theremin,
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 01:47 PM
Dec 2014

which in turn behaves in a consistent, predictable manner. Similarly, I can alter a simple transistor radio to consistently and predictably pick up air traffic control. While the analogy was (and is) tongue in cheek, I still think you are overstating the case for physicality.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
38. I note that despite my gift the one who tossed that herring has not made an arrival.
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 09:41 AM
Dec 2014

I guess there was no honest desire to discuss TH in that one. I'm shocked.

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
3. From what I understand-
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 06:27 PM
Dec 2014

it is a movement that advocates the improvement of humanity via technology. I don't know a lot about it, but I don't see how it has any relation to Christmas?

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
9. Yeah I mention prosthetics upthread too.
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 07:02 PM
Dec 2014

The "its all bullshit" approach has to redefine that as "not part of what we're talking about".

edhopper

(33,591 posts)
10. If we could put Santa's brain into a computer
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 07:10 PM
Dec 2014

then via the web , he could visit every boy and girl in one night, provided they have internet access.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
11. So all the kids in north korea get screwed.
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 07:12 PM
Dec 2014

Thanks Obama for wrecking Christmas with your transhuman santa claus.

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
15. Kurzweillian Singularity?
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:41 PM
Dec 2014

Is Trans-humanism just another name for a process of embracing Kurzweil's Singularity concept?

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
17. Isn't the Singularity concept...
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:50 PM
Dec 2014

...just an intellectually derived substitution for heaven?

Just another expression of the human desire to live forever?

Cute, but just another desperate attempt (albeit with technology) to create a framework of false hope for immortality?

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
18. No it is the point in time where machine consciousness transcends human consciousness.
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:53 PM
Dec 2014

You are probably referring to consciousness portability, which would in fact raise practical issues of relative immortality.

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
19. I have come to understand the the Kurtzweil Singularity (KS)...
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:59 PM
Dec 2014

...isn't necessarily a separately derived conscience, but an melding of all existing human consciences into a machine/digital framework.

Everyone who is alive (biologically) at the the the singularity is created can opt to be part of that entity and "live forever" (some restrictions may apply).

(apologies for my low response rate, my wifi is overheating again and I am losing bandwidth)

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
20. Wiki and I agree.
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 09:06 PM
Dec 2014

The technological singularity hypothesis is that accelerating progress in technologies will cause a runaway effect wherein artificial intelligence will exceed human intellectual capacity and control, thus radically changing or even ending civilization in an event called the singularity.[1] Because the capabilities of such an intelligence may be impossible to comprehend, the technological singularity is an occurrence beyond which events are predictable or even fathomable.[2]

The first use of the term "singularity" in this context was by mathematician John von Neumann. In 1958, regarding a summary of a conversation with von Neumann, Stanislaw Ulam described "ever accelerating progress of technology and changes in the mode of human life, which gives the appearance of approaching some essential singularity in the history of the race beyond which human affairs, as we know them, could not continue".[3] The term was popularized by science fiction writer Vernor Vinge, who argues that artificial intelligence, human biological enhancement, or brain–computer interfaces could be possible causes of the singularity.[4] Futurist Ray Kurzweil cited von Neumann's use of the term in a foreword to von Neumann's classic The Computer and the Brain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

However consciousness portability is part of TH. Note that if the technological singularity happens it is quite likely that we will have to concede that machines are in fact conscious, that consciousness is quite obviously material, and that a consciousness can be both "located" and "relocated" in machines. It would be odd indeed if machines achieved relative immortality and consciousness but we were stuck in our unrelocatable meat machine brains. It could happen, it would be ironic.

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
21. So, does the KS become a subsitute for..
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 09:12 PM
Dec 2014

...god(s)? Up to the point just before it comes into being, and then does it (the God concept) become irrelevant?

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
22. I don't know what anyone means by "god".
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 09:21 PM
Dec 2014

If you mean "supernatural entity", no. "the machines" will just be smarter than we are. We may not understand what they are doing or how they are doing it, but they won't be supernatural entities.

By the way it may already have happened. How would we know?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
25. John G. Messerly does.
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 09:52 PM
Dec 2014


Today he's also pimping the racist sociobiologist Edward O. Wilson.

http://reasonandmeaning.com/2014/12/23/science-explains-religion/

I have no idea why anyone would post his crap here.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
27. He was promulgating "scientific" racism.
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 10:51 PM
Dec 2014
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_race_and_intelligence_controversy

Arthur Jensen, Richard Herrnstein and William Shockley were part of a big push in the 70s arguing that IQ tests demonstrated African Americans are less intelligent than Caucasians. Wilson added genetic explanations. Much more vile than woo.

edhopper

(33,591 posts)
41. You'll have to show me where
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 11:35 AM
Dec 2014

Wilson agreed with Schockley, Jensen and Murray.

I can only find places where he is portrayed as a Democrat with strong conservation ideals.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
42. Wilson's sociobiology, advocaing for biodeterminsm, dovetailed with Jensen, Shockley et al.
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 12:10 PM
Dec 2014

advocacy that genetically determined intelligence resulted in inferiority and superiority within human populations.

In many ways, Wilson's use of genetics to describe unalterable group traits, as well as his conclusions, are much more far-reaching and damaging than simple intelligence testing.

Here's one critique. http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/science-and-technology/edward-wilson-social-conquest-earth-evolutionary-errors-origin-species

If you want to go to the beginning of the controversy, this is a good start: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1975/nov/13/against-sociobiology/?insrc=toc

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
35. Is Transhumanism Messerly's invention?
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 01:21 AM
Dec 2014

If not, then he is simply a data point, in that he has an opinion on the subject.

I have opinions as well. That doesn't mean I agree with Messerly in any fashion.

(Edit: That is slightly facetious, I know full well the concept is older than his entire lifespan. Nor does transhumanism imply or require eugenics anyway.)

Jim__

(14,077 posts)
30. Can you cite any racist remarks made by Wilson?
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 11:04 PM
Dec 2014

Wilson was raised in the American south and has stated that he was raised a racist. He long ago left those views behind. He has made unfortunate remarks about eugenics, however, even those remarks were tempered by an admission of a current ignorance that prevents any implementation of such a program.

An excerpt from The Evolutionary Ethics of E O Wilson:

The charge that Wilson is a racist or misogynist is of course utterly unfounded; to the contrary, he is the quintessential liberal humanist. Just the same, in his 1978 Pulitzer Prize-winning book On Human Nature, Wilson voiced support for a renewed program of eugenics. While he conceded that given our limited understanding of human genetics we should at present aim to preserve the entire gene pool, he maintained that in the future, when we have “almost unimaginably greater knowledge of human heredity,” we may be able to institute a “democratically contrived eugenics.”


I'd like to hear if you have a stronger case to make that Wilson is a racist.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
31. It's far from offhand remarks. You'll get the flavor even from this, a very flattering profile:
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 11:19 PM
Dec 2014
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2001/feb/17/books.guardianreview57

You can get more flavor from this, decidedly unflattering, critique:

http://tomweston.net/rosent.htm

And this is where his reputation resides today, compliments of the WSJ:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303626804579506012946655636

It appears to me there is a reason why transhumanists admire him.

Jim__

(14,077 posts)
32. I'm not asking about inferences drawn by other people.
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 11:47 PM
Dec 2014

I know that some people claim that Wilson is a racist. They base that claim on inferences they draw from what he says, not on any direct statement from him. People who believe that a eugenics program is necessarily racist seem to be making some racist assumptions. Can you cite a statement by Wilson that is racist? I scanned the articles and didn't see one. I disagree with Wilson on any number of questions. However, I consider him to be a scientist trying to learn the truth through research. I don't believe that he has any racist intentions and I haven't seen any racism in his writings that I've read. The articles that you cited didn't change my mind.

The conclusion to the Guardian Profile:

With sociobiology prospering, Wilson has carried his research into the full arena of human knowledge, publishing the hugely ambitious Consilience in 1998, in which he developed his ideas about gene-culture co-evolution further and resurrected CP Snow's efforts to conjoin the "two cultures". In fact, Wilson's arguments are more fundamental and persuasive than Snow's; works on evolution, like Sociobiology and Dawkins's The Selfish Gene, have been absorbed into western cultural life as neatly as any neo-Darwinist could have predicted.

"He is," says Ian McEwan, "a scientific materialist who warmly embraces the diversity of human achievement - including religion and art, which he sees in evolutionary terms. One of his tasks has been to further the Enlightenment project of absorbing the social sciences into science proper; another has been to find a sound ethical basis for ecological thinking. He is fundamentally a rational optimist who shows us the beauty of the narrative of life on earth. He is living proof that materialism need not be a bleak world view."



You can't believe this is any kind of scholarship, from Rosenthal:

Because of these sharp critiques, Wilson reinvented himself as an environmentalist concerned about bio-diversity. A quarter century and five books later, Wilson today poses as a reasonable advocate of genetic and cultural "co-evolution" and as a proponent of genetic/environmental interaction. He pretends to reject biological determinism, social Darwinism, and eugenics. The ruling class has extolled Consilience as the crowning achievement of a visionary elder statesman of capitalist science. The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal lavishly praised his call for the subjugation of the social sciences and the humanities to the natural sciences, and for the elevation of his pseudo-science to state religion. The Atlantic Monthly interviewed Wilson and published excerpts of Consilience.


I can't get to the Wall Street Journal article without a subscription.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
34. The WSJ article has a free pass key at the link. It may work.
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 12:08 AM
Dec 2014

Are you asking for a statement from Wilson that "I am a racist?" Or a passage akin to Mein Kampf?

You may find his discussion of “democratically contrived eugenics" on page 198 of On Human Nature to be of interest.

The "inferences" are conclusions based on his work. Endorsements from Diamond, Dawkins and McEwan notwithstanding.

The social Darwinism that Wilson, even to this day, promotes was the ideological cover for the European empires and sounds so much more reasonable than "white man's burden".




Jim__

(14,077 posts)
39. I am asking for any statement by Wilson that indicates he is a racist.
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 10:33 AM
Dec 2014

A statement by Wilson that he believes in the white man's burden would suffice.

Are you calling Wilson a racist because you have heard other people make that charge? Or, are you calling Wilson a racist because of something you have heard him say or seen in his writing? If it's something that you have heard him say or have seen in his writing, please repeat those statements here so that people can judge the accuracy of your claim. If you have to refer to a whole book or a chapter in a book, then you are basing your charge on inferences that you are making rather than on any direct statements that he has made. If you are aware of racist statements that he has made, you should be able to repeat those statements here.

Let's be honest. A racist can interpret the Sermon on the Mount as supporting his position. After all, it divides the world into the Blessed and, by implication, the not-so Blessed - clearly us and them. Does a racist interpretation of the Sermon imply that Jesus was a racist? Few people, hearing the words of this sermon, would conclude that it is racist. That is why I would like to hear Wilson's own words that mark him as a racist.

Jim__

(14,077 posts)
43. Yes. Have you read the context of that remark?
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 12:12 PM
Dec 2014
Here.

A very brief excerpt:

... The genes of the Sisyphean combinations are probably spread throughout populations. For this reason alone, we are justified in considering the preservation of the entire gene pool as a contingent primary value until such time as an almost umimaginably greater knowledge of human heredity provides us with the option of a democratically contrived eugenics.


He continues by coming out in favor of universal human rights based on the need for individual freedom and the consequences of long term inequities. Then states that that the need for a universal human rights movement will be more compelling than any rationalization contrived by culture to reinforce and euphemize it.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
44. Yes, that's the page number I posted.
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 12:19 PM
Dec 2014

That passage follows his comments about &quot T)ruly exceptional individuals, weak or strong" being the result of random selection. He proposes gene pools, (democratically controlled I'm sure) presumably to eliminate the weak and promote the strong.

It's raw eugenics and it's racist, regardless of what a fine fellow he is.

Jim__

(14,077 posts)
45. You may want to re-read it.
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 12:32 PM
Dec 2014
... So if genius is to any extent hereditary, it winks on and off through the gene pool in a way that it would be difficult to measure or predict. Like Sisyphus rolling his boulder up and over to the top of the hill only to have it tumble down again, the human gene pool creates hereditary genius in many ways in many places only to have it come apart the next generation. ...


I'm sorry, there is no racism explicit or implicit in that paragraph. He's arguing that we can't predict where genius will arise. And, as I said, he then goes on to argue for universal human rights. If this book, chapter, paragraph is why you think Wilson is racist, then your opinion is clearly based on a misunderstanding of what he is saying.

Jim__

(14,077 posts)
50. Yes. And he's arguing against eugenics.
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 01:35 PM
Dec 2014

Re-read the paragraph. Then read the next paragraph.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
51. Sorry, Jim, "democratically contrived" eugenics remains eugenics.
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 01:47 PM
Dec 2014

And that's what he proposed. Notwithstanding how many rational ants he posits.

Jim__

(14,077 posts)
53. "... evolutionary theory also favors diversity in the gene pool as a cardinal value."
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 02:02 PM
Dec 2014
... We will accede to universal rights because power is too fluid in advanced technological societies to circumvent this mammalian imperative; - <i.e. the individual strives for personal reproductive success foremost and that of his immediate kin secondarily - Jim> - the long-term consequences of inequity will always be visibly dangerous to its temporary beneficiaries. I suggest that this is the true reason for the universal rights movement and that an understanding of its raw biological causation will be more compelling in the end than any rationalization contrived by culture to reinforce and euphemize it.


Do you believe that eugenics sees diversity as a cardinal value? Do you really believe that eugenics can be a part of a universal human rights movement?
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
54. Yes, I can read as well as you.
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 02:08 PM
Dec 2014

No, eugenics is not at all compatible with human rights.

So, why is he advocating democratically contrived eugenics?

Jim__

(14,077 posts)
60. What he posited for eugenics is: not now, not ever.
Fri Dec 26, 2014, 10:54 AM
Dec 2014
Not now because we need an almost unimaginably greater knowledge of human heredity than we currently have before eugenics is any type of option.

Not ever because the realization that the universal human rights movement has a raw biological causation which is compelling will make us accede to it. A universal human rights movement that will outlaw any eugenics program.
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