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cbayer

(146,218 posts)
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 12:16 PM Jan 2015

Is Refusal to Write Anti-Gay Cake Message a Violation of Religious Freedom?

http://religiondispatches.org/is-refusal-to-write-anti-gay-cake-message-a-violation-of-religious-freedom/

BY KARA LOEWENTHEIL
JANUARY 23, 2015

Denver, Colorado can feel like an alternate universe for a lot of reasons, but now we can add a new one to the list. Because in the first such case of which I’m aware, a bakery in Denver has been sued for refusing to bake a homophobic cake. According to the reports, the plaintiff in the suit requested that the baker bake him a cake that said “God hates gays” along with a picture of two men holding hands with an X over them. When the baker—who identifies as Christian herself—refused, the plaintiff filed a complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Division, accusing her of religious discrimination.

It’s a snappy inversion of the now-classic example of bakers who refuse to provide wedding cakes for gay marriage or commitment ceremonies (or florists who refuse to provide flowers, photographers who refuse to photograph the ceremony, etc.). And that’s probably not an accident; if I were a betting woman, I’d bet heavily that a pro-religious-exemption think tank or law firm, like the Becket Fund, had come up with this plan and recruited a plaintiff to set it in motion.

The involvement of the local politicians mentioned in the story is likely strategic as well: Talking Points Memo quotes an “anti-gay” state lawmaker who says he supports the baker’s right to not print messages she finds offensive on her cakes. Now perhaps he’s just a stringent supporter of free speech, but it’s entirely possible that he supports this principle because he knows it’s more likely to come up the other way around, with religious conservatives refusing to provide goods or services associated with practices to which they object (like gay marriage, abortion, contraception, etc.).

So as a piece of political theater and strategy, it’s a clever move. As a legal matter, it’s also an interesting case. The fact that the plaintiff requested actual words on the cake makes it more complicated, because it implicates the baker’s free speech rights. It’s one thing to request that a baker furnish a cake that might be used to celebrate something to which the baker objects—that’s a kind of second-degree complicity argument. But requiring a baker to actually perform a speech act—writing on the cake and selling it—might be more problematic from a free speech point of view.

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Is Refusal to Write Anti-Gay Cake Message a Violation of Religious Freedom? (Original Post) cbayer Jan 2015 OP
Tough call Cartoonist Jan 2015 #1
I think you make a good distinction between refusing a person cbayer Jan 2015 #2
A gay theme maybe edhopper Jan 2015 #13
Interesting edhopper Jan 2015 #3
I'm not sure what your stance is. I am also not sure what mine is. cbayer Jan 2015 #4
I articulated it edhopper Jan 2015 #9
Let me make sure I understand it then. cbayer Jan 2015 #11
Yes that's right edhopper Jan 2015 #12
Someone would make an announcement in order to set a precedent cbayer Jan 2015 #14
No edhopper Jan 2015 #15
Well, actually an OB-GYN can discriminate based on the ability to pay, but cbayer Jan 2015 #16
Yes edhopper Jan 2015 #17
No rock Jan 2015 #5
So, what about the case where the baker refused cbayer Jan 2015 #6
Same conclusion rock Jan 2015 #7
What about a business that doesn't want to service black people? cbayer Jan 2015 #8
The law does not allow them that freedom rock Jan 2015 #18
The law applies to lots and lots of groups of people, so your statement cbayer Jan 2015 #19
Well, admitedly, it's the old saw about rock Jan 2015 #20
The point is that if you open a business, you may be obligated to do cbayer Jan 2015 #21
I certainly agree with that rock Jan 2015 #22
So, now what is your position about the baker that refuses to make a cake for a gay wedding? cbayer Jan 2015 #23
That it's not a violation of religious freedom rock Jan 2015 #26
Are you saying edhopper Jan 2015 #10
No, I'm saying rock Jan 2015 #24
There's a way to handle this that gets the baker's point across. okasha Jan 2015 #25
Refusing to sell a wedding cake to LGBTQ persons is a different issue Maedhros Jan 2015 #27
Simple answer: no brooklynite Jan 2015 #28
Actually, the baker is not obligated to even provide a cake. TM99 Jan 2015 #29
42 U.S. Code § 12181 brooklynite Jan 2015 #30
Read further. TM99 Jan 2015 #31

Cartoonist

(7,317 posts)
1. Tough call
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 12:32 PM
Jan 2015

I think it's a specific case issue, something that is impossible to write into law. There is a difference between refusing to make a cake simply because the customer is gay and specifically making a cake with a message the baker is uncomfortable with. Still, the same argument can be made with making a cake with a gay theme, even though the uncomfortableness lies in bigotry and hate. I bet I can guess how Scalia would rule.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
2. I think you make a good distinction between refusing a person
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 12:41 PM
Jan 2015

because of who they are and refusing to transmit a message.

But there are two other scenarios to consider.

The first is one she describes. What if someone wants a plain cake and says they are going to use if in an anti-gay prayer meeting where they will pray for the damnation of all GLBT people and use the cake as a sacrament?

The other is what you describe. What if someone asks for a cake to be decorated in a way the baker finds vile and offensive, even though you and I would not agree that it is?

I'm not sure how Scalia would rule.

edhopper

(33,587 posts)
13. A gay theme maybe
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 03:29 PM
Jan 2015

but refusing to simple write two names on a cake, even if they are both men, is not reasonable.

And not selling a blank cake, just because it is for a gay wedding is unacceptable.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. I'm not sure what your stance is. I am also not sure what mine is.
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 12:53 PM
Jan 2015

I know what my ideological position is, but I am concerned about hypocrisy.

This author also brings up the point about the right to refuse something based on religious beliefs as opposed to political beliefs. The first may be protected while the second probably is not.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
11. Let me make sure I understand it then.
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 03:17 PM
Jan 2015

If someone is asked to provide goods for something or someone that they don't like or approve of, or find objectionable, they should be required to provide those goods regardless.

If someone is asked to add something to the goods that reflects what they consider bigotry or hate, the person should be allowed to refuse to do that.

So the baker who is asked to provide cupcakes for a KKK rally would have to do that, but could refuse to put swastikas on them.

Is that right?

I think the issue would hinge on the definition of bigotry or hate, which is not always that clear.

edhopper

(33,587 posts)
12. Yes that's right
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 03:26 PM
Jan 2015

Now if we get into extreme groups, like the KKK, if what they would be doing is illegal, like a cross burning with cupcakes, I could see them being refused. Though why someone would make an announcement when buying a plain cake, I don't know.

But who the customer is should have no bearing on it. Rights are not up to the individual.

They should tell them their money is going to the NAACP or rev. Sharpton though.

If you are open to business for the public, you must serve the whole public. Though you are allowed to refuse an unreasonable request that is different than what you normally do. Putting to names on a cake would be normal, even if they are both men or woman, saying something vile would not be.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
14. Someone would make an announcement in order to set a precedent
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 03:31 PM
Jan 2015

or with the intention of filing a legal case, as happened here.

I'd be careful about telling them you are going to treat them and their money differently if your intent is to discourage their business. You could be dancing on a discrimination fine line there.

I think there are exceptions to your position that you must serve the whole public. Should an OB-GYN with strong personal beliefs about when life begins be forced to perform abortions? But in general, I agree with your distinctions here.

edhopper

(33,587 posts)
15. No
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:34 PM
Jan 2015

But if an OB_GYN performs abortions, he can't discriminate against who hr or she serves (within legal reasons like minors)

No, my example is not discrimination, just as I can't have a say in what they do with the cake, they don't have a say if I use their money for something they don't like.

And that is not the case here, they asked for a special cake unlike anything the baker had done, it wasn't about where the cake was used.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
16. Well, actually an OB-GYN can discriminate based on the ability to pay, but
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:42 PM
Jan 2015

that is another issue.

edhopper

(33,587 posts)
17. Yes
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:59 PM
Jan 2015

but that is not discrimination, just how business is done here.

I should say he/she cannot discriminate based on the person, in line with the baker story.

And a doctor is in a whole different category than a public business owner.

They can limit their clients and the work they can do for many reasons.

Lawyers, accountants and other professionals can do the same.


Have to go now, good talking.

rock

(13,218 posts)
5. No
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 01:16 PM
Jan 2015

Please notice that the individual is not prevented from baking his own cake any way he wants it. This is simply a question of the baker's participation which one is not granted by the freedom of religion.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
6. So, what about the case where the baker refused
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 01:32 PM
Jan 2015

to bake a cake for a gay couple that was getting married? He didn't want to participate either.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
8. What about a business that doesn't want to service black people?
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 02:04 PM
Jan 2015

Can you make them do something?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
19. The law applies to lots and lots of groups of people, so your statement
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:13 PM
Jan 2015

"Your freedoms don't make me do anything." is not really valid.

People's freedoms do make you do things.

rock

(13,218 posts)
20. Well, admitedly, it's the old saw about
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:20 PM
Jan 2015

Your freedom of swinging your fist ends where my nose begins. Notice that if I do not desire to serve a sector of the population, I do not have to open the bakery at all. It's not their freedoms that are forcing me to comply, it's my discrimination.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
21. The point is that if you open a business, you may be obligated to do
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:25 PM
Jan 2015

some things that you don't ideologically agree with or be faced with complaints of discrimination.

Your freedom to discriminate ends when you open your doors to the public.

rock

(13,218 posts)
22. I certainly agree with that
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:41 PM
Jan 2015

It's part of the 'social agreement' that's implied (and sometimes even explicit)!

rock

(13,218 posts)
26. That it's not a violation of religious freedom
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:47 PM
Jan 2015

Now if there is a law about LGBT discrimination, that could well be a different matter.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
25. There's a way to handle this that gets the baker's point across.
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:46 PM
Jan 2015

Inscribe the cake "God loves gays," and make wide, innocent eyes when the guy comes to pick it up. "Oh, dear, Reverend, I misread the message. I couldn't believe a man of God would want a hateful message on the cake."

Then donate the cake to a local LGBT group.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
27. Refusing to sell a wedding cake to LGBTQ persons is a different issue
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:52 PM
Jan 2015

from that of refusing to sell a cake with a bigoted message.

A business owner should not be able to deny service to a category of persons - gay, straight, black, white, religious, secular. This is discrimination.

brooklynite

(94,594 posts)
28. Simple answer: no
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:55 PM
Jan 2015

The baker is obligated to provide a cake, and nothing else. The decoration and messaging is not a protected right.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
29. Actually, the baker is not obligated to even provide a cake.
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:38 PM
Jan 2015

Until both parties agree on a contracted arrangement, neither one is obligated to the other to fulfill any portion thereof.

Let's put this into my field for a moment. If the parents of a young gay man come to my office for a first family session and ask me to do some sort of conversion therapy on their son, am I obligated to do so?

Hell no. If they have paid, I refund their money and send them on their way. If we have not yet exchanged money, then I simply say no and ask them to leave my office. They can't sue me for either.

This guy can not sue a baker for not making a cake the way he wants. Did he pay for it and then only later ask for the bigoted message? Tough shit! That wasn't in the original terms. Did he simply walk in off the street and say I wanted a bigot cake with hate speech penned on it raspberry icing? Touch shit! The owner/baker can say, nope, I won't do it. Feel free to take your business elsewhere.

This is not a complicated situation. This man is an ass and has no legal, ethical, or moral standing whatsoever in this situation. I am only thankful that the baker is getting free advertising. Even bad publicity is publicity. They'll be just fine!

brooklynite

(94,594 posts)
30. 42 U.S. Code § 12181
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:58 PM
Jan 2015

&quot 7) Public accommodation

The following private entities are considered public accommodations for purposes of this subchapter, if the operations of such entities affect commerce—

...snip...

(E) a bakery, grocery store, clothing store, hardware store, shopping center, or other sales or rental establishment; "

A public accommodation cannot deny service. Arguably a therapist or medical professional cannot deny service either (although not covered by statute). However, the extent of the service is a matter of contractual agreement. The baker is obliged to provide a cake, but the decorations are a matter of agreement. Likewise, the therapist must provide counseling, but the form of the counseling is subject to agreement.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
31. Read further.
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 11:35 PM
Jan 2015

Under reasonable situations and circumstance, any public accommodation from a therapist to a baker can deny service as long as it is not a form of discrimination that is legally covered. I can turn away a family that wants conversion therapy because the parents are not a 'protected class'. They are not disabled. I am not discriminating on the basis of religion, ethnicity, race, etc.

The same would certainly hold true in this situation. This man is not a special class. Sure he can attempt to argue that he is being 'discriminated' against based on his religion but violations of human rights, hate speech, etc. are not protected in private business transactions and his homophobia is not a part of his religion. He will have an uphill battle attempting to prove that to a judge.

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