There are a lot of people at my UU church and in other progressive churches who are there because of men like those you listed.

I don't see how they are advocates for atheism. It's pretty clear that there are some really horrible people of faith, but that doesn't make a case for atheism.

It does make a case for believers and non-believers to stand together against these kinds of people, though.

Are you in?

Almost everything is neither black or white. It's all gray.

to assess things fairly and accurately.

The more likely you are to stand back and do nothing about it, for as long as possible.

My 1st rejection was religion itself, because so many like them were so loud and causing so much dissent and doing their best to turn this country into a theocracy all in the name of their faith.

Good people don't need religion, or faith, to be good. But rotten people so often do bad in the name of their religion.

I am glad for you that you found your path and followed it.

Good people don't need religion to be good and rotten people often do rotten things without any religious motivation at all.

Be a good person. Whether you are a religious believer or not makes no difference.

ISIS will be tough to counter.
I think you will fall on your face.

My hope for you is that someday you recognize that there are good things within religion, bad things within religion, good things within atheism and bad things within atheism and drop this crusade to make it all good on one side and bad on the other.

There is nothing else there. No other baggage is entailed. There are no other "things" within atheism to be either good or bad.

You couldn't even come up with one.

I think you seriously missed my point, but keep on keeping on.

Instead you fell flat on your face, as I knew you would. You got nothing but empty platitudes without anything to back them up.

I accept yours. See you around the campfire.

Ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, for example, when it relates to the credibility of statements of fact or when used in certain kinds of moral and practical reasoning.

You can run, but you can't hide.

You failed to provide when called on it, then you surrendered.

"They" are all bad, dumb, and indecent?

Just that they don't neccessarily represent religion. The good deeds they do don't require religion, but the three names I mentioned would not be in business were it not for religion. You can post all the stories you want about people who rescue puppies for Jesus, but that hardly compares with ISIS. You're welcome to give it a shot too, since cbayer came up empty.

You can't say that the good that religious people do has nothing to do with religion, then turn around and say that the evil that religious people do has everything to do with religion.

This is where this entire OP falls apart.

I could list positive religious leaders and groups for days and it would not suit you, because you would dismiss them as not needing religion to be good and not equal in their goodness to the evil of ISIS.

I could also list truly evil people with no religion connection, but, unlike you, I would never make the claim that they are the embodiment of atheism and represent it's true meaning.

Because that would simply be ludicrous.

Are you prepared to fall on your face again?

Seriously? Is this new information for you?


Interfaith Alliance
Sojourners
Evangelical Environmental Network
Interreligious Network to Abolish Nuclear Weapons
NALT
American Friends Service Committee
Christian Alliance for Progress
Human Rights Campaign Religion and Faith Program
No Longer Silent: Clergy for Justice
Church Women United
National Council of Churches
Faith Voices for the Common Good
Unitarian Universalist Association


Jay Bakker
Rob Bell
Nadia Bolz-Weber
Marcus Borg (deceased)
Walt Brown
John M. Buchanan
Diana Butler Bass
Walter Brueggemann
Frederick Buechner
Tony Campolo and the Red-Letter Christian movement
Jimmy Carter
Steve Chalke
Shane Claiborne
William Sloane Coffin
Benjamin L. Corey
John Dominic Crossan
Michael Dowd
Peter Enns
Rachel Held Evans
Harry Emerson Fosdick
Matthew Fox
Anthony Freeman
Becky Garrison
Lloyd Geering
Stanley Hauerwas
Alan Hirsch
Tony Jones (theologian)
Dan Kimball
Anne Lamott
James Lawson - lifelong community leader and advocate for social justice
Scot McKnight
Brian McLaren
Erwin McManus
Thomas Merton (deceased)
Donald Miller (author)
Bill Moyers
Brian P. Moore - US Presidential candidate for the 2008 Presidential elections
Carrie Newcomer
Henri Nouwen (deceased)
Doug Pagitt
Gene Robinson
Richard Rohr
John Shelby Spong
Barbara Brown Taylor
Phyllis Tickle
C.T. Vivian
Jim Wallis
Walter Wink (deceased)
Daniel Wise (former editor of Zion's Herald, which later became The Progressive Christian magazine)
Br. Karekin M. Yarian, BSG
Frank P. Zeidler

I posted a short list of three people and their religious inspired actions. All three of them made the news. All three got discussed here. It was yoiu who posted the story of the Jet.
The whole point of my OP was that for anyone questioning their faith, all they need do is look at what religious leaders are doing, then make up their mind if they want to be part of that. Your list is impressive in its length, but weak in its impact. I never heard of most of them, and that's my point. Who cares what I.M. Nobody says or does if no one hears of it? Who cares what The Institute For Happiness does if they make no real difference in our lives on the same scope as ISIS or some high ranking Bishop?

I could list positive religious leaders and groups for days and it would not suit you, because you would dismiss them as not needing religion to be good and not equal in their goodness to the evil of ISIS.

You have no idea about the impact of these groups and these people. None. You only see the bad. You can't accept the good and reject it without a clue as to what they do or have done.

You want a high ranking bishop? Take Gene Robinson.

I am done with this discussion, but please feel free to continue digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

You mean you are done falling on your face. I don't blame you. You keep saying you could post examples but then you come up empty every time. Ouch!

Archbishop Desmond Tutu, instrumental in ending apartheid in South Africa and outspoken advocate of LGBT rights in Africa;

Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church Katherine Schorri, busted the stained-glass ceiling to smithereens, instrumental in ordaining LGBT priests and bishops.

Bishop Oscar Romero (deceased) opposed the right-wing death squads in El Salvador and was martyred for it.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama, (repeatedly deceased) currently living peace activist. Recently ordered to reincarnate upon his next death by atheists of Chinese Communist regime.

Essentially, what you are saying is that a few good religious people have acted to clean up the mess created by the many bad religious people. What an empty argument. If it wasn't for religion, there would be no need for religious cleanup squads.

I was providing you with a list of "high-ranking bishops" who had made quite a lot of noise in the forest and of whom you really can't credibly claim to be ignorant.

But who's mess was he cleaning up? Hint: It begins with a C.

Afrikaaners.
Brits.

Just another bunch of land-grabbers, right?

Imperialism is always about wealth and power.

You have an obvious blind spot. The Chinese are atheists, but the imperialists are never Christians.

profit and power. So, for that matter, is atheism.

Ignorance is a feeble excuse when you portray yourself as an objectivist (which seems to be your inclination -- although you are, of course, free to explain how you differ). Perhaps you will address the list I provided, and grace us with a description of how and why these "I.M. Nobodies" are irrelevant.

I will also note that you seem to view "ordinary little nobodies" as human trash, so long as they have that disagreeable inclination towards faith. And that you simultaneously seem to view yourself as a rather extraordinary gem in the trash heap. Let us hope you need no sympathy should you fall on hard times

Oi.

Pierre Marie Heude
Manuel Magri
Eugène Lafont
Gyula Fényi
Franz Xaver Kugler
James Cullen
Theodor Wulf
Émile Licent
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
Paul McNally
James Macelwane
Alberto Dou Mas de Xaxàs
Luís Archer
Roberto Busad
Guy Consolmagno
George V. Coyne
Kevin T. FitzGerald
José Gabriel Funes
Frank Haig
Michael C. McFarland
Bienvenido Nebres

that there are deliberate caricatures of atheism being fobbed off in this forum.

It's the perfect environment for it.

Read ALL of post 44. If a tree falls in a forrest and no one is around to hear it, it doesn't matter if it makes a sound.

I don't know any of those people. I bet all of my chips that you've heard of ISIS.

to science and mathematics. You are desperately in need of some rather rudimentary education.

Perhaps some day you will mature enough to realize that today's headlines are not remotely the measure of man.

Fact checking? Scientific method? Whazzat?

So sue me.

without checking on its veracity.

Really, Toons, if you saw a report on yahoo that unicorns had been discovered in a hidden valley in the Austrian Alps, would you rush to post it without at least a teensy-weensy little suspicion that all might not be as claimed?

Sue you? And spoil your comedy act? No way.

It sure had the ring of truth. Kind of like that guy who compared homosexuality to Downs Syndrome. How did that sit with you? Just another day at the church.

You do understand it is just a position on a single point, correct? You're trying to frame this inaccurately for some reason.

which is, frankly, a completely ludicrous. It's just as ludicrous as saying something about "the true meaning of religion".

You understand that I am making a rhetorical point to counter the OP's broad brush and grossly erroneous assumptions, correct?

Your behavior toward unbelievers on this forum is beyond aggravating. Seriously, please stop the condescending, passive aggressive behavior so much holier than thou bullshit. Please.

Don't buy into the caricature that has been created and festers.

I have a history with this member and he is rabidly anti-theist. I object to that. This OP is what is beyond aggravating, condescending and holier than thou.

The response to which you object was no different than the response he had made to me when I objected to his position here.

Now, let me just say this, LiberalAndProud - don't judge lest ye be judged. People in glass houses and all that.

I was speaking from personal experience. I have enjoyed some of our exchanges in this forum, but often your comments in response to unbelievers (including me) provoke a none-too-pleasant emotional response. If that's your intention, please carry on. As for me, I'll be finished with this unhappy subthread as of now.

That's her purpose here, I think.

There's no "good" or "bad" in it, it's a lack of belief in god/s. Nothing more than that. Please, please, please get the basics right.

There's no "good" or "bad" in it. It's a belief in god(s). Nothing more than that. Please, please, please get the basics right.

Thanks in advance.

Otherwise what you have instead is analogy fail:

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that it was the positive influence of atheists and not the more stupid, horrid, ridiculous, etc... religious people that helped me become an atheist.

Not as great? More great? Great flavored? Dipped and fried in greatness? Grating?

Where are we at with this placement on the 'greatness' continuum, had he come to atheism by other means?

And it's sad and pathetic.

Just trying to keep you honest here.

What makes YOUR POV even the slightest bit more valid than anothers?

...that's on you, and likely a description of your own religious values, not mine.

I'm an atheist.

Your bizarre notion that the true meaning of religion is burning down churches and mosques is a reflection of your own fundamentalist religious values, and most certainly not of my own values as an atheist.

In your last post, you fabricated what you wanted me to say, then in the next paragraph, actually claim I said it.


Bizarre indeed.

And you wonder why you've been blocked from so many groups?

kindly ask for clarification. Don't make preposterous statements.

including me and you.

Is it the true meaning of religion?

You just made a preposterous statement. Not for the first time.

Joseph Stalin
Killed millions during his quest for power

Mao Tse Tung
killed millions in his quest for power

Pol Pot
killed millions in his quest for power

To these three representatives of the evil of atheism, salut!

Now I have answered one ridiculous assertion with another. The difference between us, Cartoonist, is that I recognize that my assertions are ridiculous and prove nothing.

Top three unwitting advocates for theism!

It's beyond ridiculous and would never happen, but somehow this OP is just fine.

I am a person of faith. What, besides that statement, do I share with any other person of faith by the simple fact of the statement that I am a person of faith?

I know many people. Some behave well towards others, some do not. I do not have to use any descriptives, such as "atheist" or "person of faith" or "person of color" or any other adjectives. The descriptive words are simply not necessary to use because one's actions do not depend on them.

Stalin was a sociopathic monster. Do I have to say he was a Georgian? If I do does that condemn all Georgians?

Mao was also a sociopathic monster. Do I then condemn all ethnic Chinese?

Pol Pot was also a sociopathic monster. Do I condemn all Cambodians?

Then why would anyone name three self-described Christians who behaved badly to try to make the ridiculous point that billions of believers should be condemned because of the actions of 3 people?

Broad-brushing does not describe it. It is broad-brushing using a crop sprayer over a stadium.

lack of beliefs or any of the other labels you describe.

This broad brushing goes on all the time here, and this OP is the often the most extreme in doing it.

Please educate yourself on this.

I think you may be the one who needs to educate yourself, phil.

And I identify it as such and further state how ridiculous it is to make an argument based on broad-brushing. I response to you I might state that you do not understand what faith is, or that you refuse to admit the fact that the original post is nonsense.