Religion
Related: About this forumSam Harris and Cenk Uygur Clear the Air on Religious Violence and Islam
This was fascinating...
delrem
(9,688 posts)I'm 25 minutes in, and Sam Harris is coming off as a hateful weasel who hangs his hat on a faux "atheism".
But I'm interested in what Cenk is saying about deeper matters than Sam can comprehend.
Cenk is one of the best.
delrem
(9,688 posts)and I have to say that I learned how to detest Sam Harris.
Now that is one bigoted soul, that's for sure.
whew.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)I remember a polite conversation between two guys who did not differ radically.
Any passage that struck you as hateful on the part of Harris?
(ideally with a rough timing, I probably won't listen the whole thing again)
delrem
(9,688 posts)I thought his claim to "atheism" was disingenuous, because his anti-Islamic ranting had nothing to do with "atheism" and everything to do with hatred of a people. The hatred ran deeper the longer the interview went on. Cenk was good and drew the guy out.
There was a massive difference in point of view. Perhaps you didn't watch the same interview.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)But you already seem to have a strange definition of atheism and bigotry, the same definitions put forward by the religious right, just substituting Christianity for Islam.
There's nothing fake about Harris' atheism that I can see, just because he dislikes Islam. And disliking Islam alone is not bigoted, no more so than disliking any other ideology or belief system.
True atheists can also be anti-theists and there's nothing inherently bigoted about it, unless you think anti-fascism is also bigoted, for example.
I think Islam, and all Abrahamic religions really, are quite terrible, as they advocate bigotry, eternal torture, genocide, slavery and misogyny among other things.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Perhaps you should watch the interview, so you can know what you're talking about.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)disingenuous because he was ranting against Islam, and that he was about hating people because he was ranting against Islam, neither makes sense unless you have a very strange definition of the words.
If you think he's a bigot, just give some of his statements or time stamps that show it. I certainly don't agree with Harris on everything he says, and it's quite possible he's a bigot, but would be nice if you have an example.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Why not?
delrem
(9,688 posts)I've had enough of Mr. Harris.
You can study his thought, if you want.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)First it was "the whole thing", now you seem to be admitting you haven't even watched it. Perhaps you have learned about the alleged bigotry of Mr. Harris from the reports of others?
delrem
(9,688 posts)I knew nothing of Mr Harris before watching the interview.
I did google him afterward. Some article about torture, but I'd had enough by then.
Sorry if I don't meet your standards.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I remain unconvinced of either claim.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)From memory, yes, Harris doesn't like Islam. Islam, the doctrine.
That is not enough to make him a bigot with hatred of a particular people.
There are Arabs who are Christians (10% in Egypt), there are caucasian Muslims (Chechnya)
As MellowDem pointed out, the three abrahamic monotheisms can be rejected for rational reasons, and that would not be hate or bigotry.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)From my understanding of the dialogue (which I'll try to re-listen to, given time), Cenk in some unsaid way amalgamates the religion (Islam) with its followers, hence defends them due to his emotional background.
From memory, Harris just attacked in a more detached/clinical way the doctrine (and not people)
That's why the dialogue was interesting, it's a dialogue between atheists with differences due to background.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)It isn't an easy subject.
Not 14 yrs into the WoT...
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)As do my objections to religions in general.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)in answer to '(not an) easy subject .. 14 yrs into the WoT'