Religion
Related: About this forumTolerant Islam should be protected
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2015/jun/12/tolerant-islam-worth-protecting-kazakhstanGiles Fraser
Kazakhstan is at a decisive moment between a Soviet atheist past and an increasingly Islamic future
United Nations secretary general Ban Ki-moon and Kazakh president Nursultan Nazarbayev at the Fifth Congress of the Leaders of World and Traditional Religions in Astana, Kazakhstan. Photograph: Ilyas Omarov/AFP/Getty Images
Friday 12 June 2015 12.35 EDT Last modified on Saturday 13 June 2015 04.21 EDT
It might feel a little more convincingly like a Palace of Peace and Reconciliation, commissioned perhaps as a celebration of religious plurality, were it not for the seven tonnes of Russian-made BRDM-2 armoured personnel carrier stationed outside. By contrast, within a preposterous Norman Foster glass pyramid decorated with the kitschest white doves you have ever seen the Fifth Congress of the Leaders of World and Traditional Religions meets, and the talk is of harmony and concord even a condemnation of global arms spending by the Zoroastrian representative. Observing this, a Martian could be forgiven for assuming that religion is the number one force for good in the world. Here the Sephardic chief rabbi of Israel sits next to the head of the World Forum for Proximity of Islamic Schools of Thought next to the president of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue next to some other terribly important religious dignitary. If I gave them their full titles that would be half the word count of this article. Just as effusive greetings take up half the speeches of the delegates.
Welcome to Astana, Kazakhstan. Set amid thousands of miles of the central Asian steppe, once a place of exile and hellish punishment for the likes of Dostoyevsky and Solzhenitsyn, religious leaders now fly into this Canary Wharf of a city, with its oil-boom show-off architecture, to talk nice and stay in nice hotels. Surely Tony Blair has to be here somewhere. But the peace-loving speechifying is massively out of kilter with the global reality.
On Thursday morning an uncomfortable-looking Church of England bishop chaired a meeting with Indian cleric, Sheik Salman Al-Husaini Al-Nadwi, who publicly spoke airy words about interreligious harmony. But this same cleric has been a vocal supporter of Islamic State, last year sending effusive greetings to Isis leader Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi. You are standing bravely as a rock, he wrote to him. Again last year he penned a controversial letter to Saudi Arabia inviting them to fund Indian jihadis to fight Shias in Iraq. He dismissed the newspapers that exposed all of this as the chatterings of an old village hag. But such was the outrage in India that he was forced to issue a retraction. Nonetheless, his organisation, Jamiat Al-Shabab, still describes its mission statement thus:
It is unfortunate for Muslim Ummah that with the decline of its political and military grip on the world many great ordeals surfaced their ugly heads and threatened its very being. The flag-bearers of Disbelief: Jews, Christians and Polytheists, concentrated all their efforts to detract the Muslim youth from main stream of Islam.
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Camelback
(27 posts)All religions need to be done away with.
Ever hear John Lennon's song?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)John Lennon's song Imagine was great. He also talked about imagining there were no countries or possessions.
Are you for that as well?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)After you've been here a while, certain posters will rip you a new one for suggesting that all religions need to be done away with. Many here, your new friend included, are adamant that the need for and legitimacy of religion be defended at all costs.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)secular dictatorship that represses any unapproved religious expression.
Although it is ridiculous to call that "tolerance". The message unspoken is that Kazakhstan too would be a hell hole of radical Islam absent its strongman.
no_hypocrisy
(46,130 posts)and followers are targets of radical Islam.
onager
(9,356 posts)At least the ones I talked to weren't, when I lived in Egypt from 2005-09. Some mainstream Sunnis considered the Sufis a bunch of cloud-headed con artists at best, or apostates/heretics at worst.
Every October the Nile Delta town of Tanta, Egypt hosts a big 8-day moulid (festival) in honor of the 13th-century Sufi leader Sayid Ahmed el-Badawi. His tomb and associated mosque are located there. It's a huge excuse to party and people come to Tanta from all over the Arab world.
When I asked some of my Egyptian Muslim friends if they were going to that festival, they looked at me as if I'd just offered them a steaming pile of pork chops.
Among other things I was told - the Sufis desecrate the Tanta mosque by dancing inside it and even having sex inside.
Huh? Now I'm just a gullible Western atheist, but I didn't believe that for a second. The invited guests at the Tanta festival included the US Ambassador to Egypt and his spouse. It was hard to imagine them condoning public boinking inside a mosque.
Long as I'm here - there's no guarantee that a tolerant Sufi will stay that way. One of the best/worst examples was a young Sufi who became famous for his poetry praising wine and romantic love. He became even more famous later as Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini - not exactly a guy usually associated with the word "tolerant."
no_hypocrisy
(46,130 posts)Wow.
Promethean
(468 posts)dhol82
(9,353 posts)Promethean
(468 posts)His point is that what people object to are not fringe aspects of islam. These are the things people actually believe even in muslim communities in the first world. The people in the video all live in Norway. He is saying these core beliefs of islam aren't the problem. He is saying the problem is the people bashing islam. This fellow thinks hes making a slam dunk awesome argument against critics of islam. He is so disconnected from reality that he doesn't realize he made our argument for us.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)with the BS Islamophobia tag.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)They stand for the execution of homosexuals and supported the Charlie Hebdo terrorists. While they certainly represent a certain faction, I don't think they are moderate at all, but rather extreme.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)is the majority viewpoint.
Support for making sharia the official law of the land varies significantly across the six major regions included in the study. In countries across South Asia, Southeast Asia, sub-Saharan Africa and the Middle East-North Africa region most favor making sharia their countrys official legal code. By contrast, only a minority of Muslims across Central Asia as well as Southern and Eastern Europe want sharia to be the official law of the land.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
That includes support for brutal punishment for moral crimes including adultery and homosexuality.
dhol82
(9,353 posts)I have to say that the governments (in all the 'Stans) are hysterical about the possibility of Jihadis infiltrating into the country. Border crossing are quite the hoot.
The people are free to practice whatever religion they want. The government just doesn't want the crazies to come in and disrupt the society.
Of course, 'crazies' can refer to the dictators that control said countries.
Not sure destabilization is the best future for this area.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)But, as you point out, when the extremists are actually in control, that is the most worrisome.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The same is true for atheists, get a substantial atheist majority and fairly soon there will be a bias against the religious minority, we are all human in the end.
No one expects the apatheist inquisition.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Northern Europe are substantially atheist. They all seem tolerant.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)An atheist al qaeda attacking the Petronas towers in Malaysia?
An atheist Inquisition forcing people not to believe? (*)
(*: In Stalin's Russia or Mao's China, it was a Communist Inquisition, not an atheist inquisition)
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Replaces God with The Party. It's a simple substitution. A fully secular society with democracy has no such absurdities.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Democracy is meant to protect the rights of the minorities while representing the majority. Not always as easily done as said.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Again, ideologies and people are not the same thing. Hundreds of millions of people who call themselves muslim are normal, decent human beings. They are good folks because they are people, and not much steeped in religion. They just think that praying and giving to charity will get them paradise, and that's pretty much all they care about.
But people who are serious about Islam study the Quran and want to apply it. And that's where tolerant Islam ends: when people start being serious about it. Because the book itself is not tolerant. What is most remarkable is how many violent ayahs there are (about 3000), and how very few positive, constructive ayahs can be found. Wonder why there are very few quotes of sublimely peaceful and constructive quotes of the Quran in public discussion? Because they just are not there. Ayahs giving universal, wise peaceful advice are certainly far less than 1000, closer to 100, depending on how you count.
Same thing applies to the Old Testament which is violent too, but heavier on mythology.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)in so many parts of its own texts, and in it's most fundamental beliefs, even the god they worship is intolerant. That's a fundamental problem of Islam.