entirely unrelated to anything spiritual. A sales seminar I attended years ago advised sales people to join local churches and clubs in order to broaden their contact base and establish themselves in the community.

Professional networking is almost a sacrament it would seem.

Material / business success is a sign of God's favor and if you pile up enough wealth you get to be god on your own planet in the afterlife (men only naturally). So of course business and the Mormon religion are intertwined.

during the service. Deacon. The Green Hymnal had the offertory prayers as saying, We offer what G-d has given us, our time, our selves and OUR POSSESSIONS, SIGNS OF YOUR GRACIOUS LOVE. I objected to my pastor about this, saying that it basically states that if you do not have wealth, you are not loved. She agreed, and we totally changed that prayer. So, yes, many churches still push the G-d's favor business.

The Puritans were in there too; seems to me Mormonism is just a logical progression. And all of it seems in contradiction to Jesus' teachings but that's just me. I think Protestantism as a whole got off on the wrong foot with the "salvation by faith alone" idea--good works no longer required! I say that as one who was raised Presbyterian.

Good on you for pushing to change that prayer.

Small, with a band of activists, doing works within the community. Because, Luther had more things to say about works. To think that works gets you into heaven means that G-d is a punitive G-d. Many of the Christian Left totally reject that premise. What we believe and practice is that once you realize that you are loved, the natural reaction should be to do those Good Works. BECAUSE of the love, not to gain it. Jesus, being a Jew, was required to do five things, that we see over 230 times in the OT. 1. Feed the Hungry. 2. Clothe the Naked. 3. Shelter the homeless. 4. Visit the prisoners. 5. Treat the alien in your land as one of your own. and for followers of Yeshua of Nazareth, 6. Love one another. Calvinism and it's offshoots are the harbingers of the Prosperity groups.

It's no wonder either that Utah is the scam capital for pyramid schemes; fits right in.

its great, they wont do business with me cause i don't go to their church but they seem unable to comprehend why i won't shop with them

Those can be brought down with anti-discrimination laws, but churches can hide their bigotry behind laws, people have discovered this loophole and are exploiting it, hiding behind their faith.

using props to influence and control the masses.

They all despise us. All the doctrine is based on the evilness of woman and name us as the destruction of mankind. Some go as far as limiting woman's dress and movement. No thanks! I don't go where I am hated. Just a general rule of mine!

In a Trumpian sort of way...

=====================

As they find other outlets and sources of comfort, they leave the church behind.

visiting the sick, watching and teaching the children, changing the babies' diapers, running the yard sales, social reachout of all kinds, etc. Women who join the church are encouraged (or required) to do their bit, and I presume a lot of them are saying to themselves "Bullshit! I do 90% of this crap at home already!" Especially if their husbands are upstairs, shmoozing with the other guys about their businesses, and the fellow in the pulpit has just finished telling the women to mind God and mind their husbands. For women, it's a no-win all the way around, unless you are willing to spend Sundays building your own female churchly fiefdom just for grins. I suspect most working women don't have the time or the mental energy for this shit anymore and are opting out in droves. A relatively quiet Sunday at home (before the insanity of the workweek starts all over again) is much preferable to being put to work/reminded that you are a 2nd class citizen/etc.

Note: I'm one of the former Catholics who opted out a LOOOONG time ago.

Or personal reasons while they do all this work for the guys schmoozing upstairs. Worse than a men-only country club.

a catholic university. I opted out of the "church" in my mid teens. I attended when it was mandated by the school, but didn't partake of any sacraments. I only enter any church for either a funeral or a wedding.

As to the catholic church, it has been my belief for a long time that it can educate through the Ph.D level, Law School and Medical School, but when it comes to educating you about your faith they treat you like a child.

I wonder if there would be a correlation between staying and RWNJ attitudes.

and my church is ecumenical - three faiths, worshiping and working together. I'm active in my church precisely because there's no politics discussed, and the pastor and church culture is welcoming, inclusive, and liberal.

ETA - women are in leadership positions in every corner of the church, and we are searching for a new pastor, man or woman.

in that I go to a Catholic Church that has a liberal priest. His homilies always focus on ways to help the poor and other issues like that. The only time homosexuality and abortion came up, he basically told people they need to mind their own business. He's a great guy.

...course of action.

where the clergy staff has included women and GLBT people since before I joined in 2003, where both men and women teach the children and cook meals, where the parking lot is full of Bernie Sanders stickers, where we raise money for scholarships for homeless community college students, provide free meals, and a drop-in center for the homeless, provide free space for community meetings and arts events, and officiate at same-sex weddings. A project proposal that would have served mostly a wealthy clientele failed to attract any support. We sponsor Boy Scout and Girl Scout troops for Somali refugee children but respect the parents' wishes not to have meetings on church property or direct involvement by church members. We also have beautiful, traditional worship services with excellent music.

Stereotyping all churches reminds me of the way that Republicans stereotype all Democrats. "You're all lazy freeloaders who want free stuff."

GoneOffShore wondered if there would be a correlation between women staying in church and it being a right-wing church. There could also be one for left-leaning churches. Unlikely, since liberal churches have been losing members at an even greater rate than conservative ones, but who knows?

For reminding us of what religion should be. Your lucky to have found such a parish.

However despite the good that some churches do and have done, there are far more religious institutions that oppress, control and demonize.

I know a lot of left leaning churches and church people and have no problem with them.

But religion has always been a 'bait and switch grift' that seeks to control.
And going to the mountains or the seaside or drinking white wine in the sun is far more profitable spiritually(whatever that means).
And there are many charities that do the same work that churches do without the god component.

So, good for you and I mean that.

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(Ha! I wrote happen instead of happy! Oh, my homophonic brain...)

Hard to imagine traditional religious men tolerating women who think on their own.

This is not scientific. They don't want a wife, they want a servant. American women go to college and are too uppity. These men want women that cater to their every need, so they get a mail order bride from Russia or Asia. The men act like they are incapable of feeding themselves.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're absolutely correct. In fact, one of my friends is going through a divorce right now. His wife's side of the family is liberal and he has always hated them. Not sure what her politics were, but I imagine she towed the line for whatever he wanted, so probably republicon straight ticket. I've been wondering if this latest election cycle was possibly what broke the camel's back; she may have stood up to him on politics. Someday I'll find out.

Servant. I'll have to use that analogy sometime in front of these women to see if it upsets them. Maybe it'll get them to think about it.

My big sister was married to a man who was very antisocial. He thought she was supposed to do all the housework. They were supposed to live on her full-time job earnings, and he told her he was going to put HIS money in savings. Real control freak. She eventually divorced him, but he was very abusive to her.

One time in the early 80s, I was over at her house talking to her at the kitchen table. I was in law school at night. Then a woman came over who was our old friend from when we were kids. This was a woman lawyer. Well, Mr. Grumpy just couldn't STAND having three smart women in his house, so we three sat at the kitchen table and talked.

He went in the den and pouted. We didn't miss him a damn bit.

The last I heard, he was married to a little Oriental lady.

Is going to hell. I think religions should rethink their social beliefs. The women are the ones who instill belief in their children. If you lose the women you lose the future generation of believers.

My church has ordained women for 60 years, and now also ordains GLBTQ people.

I have several friends who are Catholic clergy and nuns, and they are fighting the good fight to open things up there, but it will take a long time. Just abandoning the church is not necessarily the best option, because then you leave this massive organization in the hands of conservatives, who breed more conservatives...

I love the essay mentioned in the OP, by the way. Read it yesterday. The author is a very interesting woman.

Now if you could just get rid of that pesky text...

itself is not the problem. It's how it's read. Most people, religious and non-religious, have no idea what the Bible is, and no idea of how to read it. Sadly many pastors don't either. As someone who regularly teaches the Bible on university level, it breaks my heart. To really get into the structure and beauty of the first chapter of Genesis (which ironically contains the second creation story in the Bible - the older one is found in Gen. 2:4 - to the end of ch. 3)... To compare the story of Noah with the flood story in the Gilgamesh epic, and the even older versions in Atrahasis and the Eridu Genesis... To read the story of David and Goliath against the background of ancient warfare (Malcom Gladwell has a fantastic 15 minute Ted talk about it)... To read the gospels against the background of the Roman Empire (e.g. Chad Myers' political reading of the Gospel of Mark in Binding the Strong Man is fantastic)... To compare the figure of Mary in the New Testament with the one in the Qur'an... is all amazing. to read and contemplate the Psalms, to sit at the feet of the strange man from Nazareth, to read the Wisdom literature in all their earthiness, to read the adventurous stories of women like Judith, Rahab, Tamar, Esther, Ruth...is all amazing. The Bible (literally "library" is complex and full of different perspectives.

But to listen to fundamentalists on the Bible is torture, almost as bad as having to listen to sentimental claptrap from the pulpit that is based on a shallow reading of the Bible. THAT, even more than gender stuff, makes me roll my eyes at the church. Because if they were to get their hermeneutics (text interpretation) right, the other stuff will also fall into place.

I simply can no longer accept that premise.

I have read the Bible both through the lens of faith and with that lens removed. There is no way to whitewash the text unless willfully ignoring what is plainly stated and clearly illustrated. It is the same mental exercise that Jehovah's Witnesses must perform to exhonerate their organization of false prophesy ... identical, as far as I can tell.

replicate 12 years of theological training and as many years of teaching in an internet discussion, so let is suffice to say that I was not talking of reading the Bible with the lens of faith or without it, nor of what is "plainly stated and clearly illustrated." The Bible is a historical text with varying genres and ideas. There's a lot in it that is problematic, and if you were to take that problematic stuff out of context and try to make it apply to today, you easily run into problems.

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Maybe the early Catholic church had it right to withhold the text from the masses, lest they be misinterpreted.

I would dearly enjoy discussing this at length with you, listening patiently and earnestly as you explain the historical backdrop of the various texts and why it reveals an inspired leap forward in human understanding. It is one of my favorite pass times. And again, I am not being sarcastic. I really do enjoy those kinds of exchanges, as long as we are both willing to work from an honest and equal platform.

To clarify, I believe the Bible has much to reveal about our human condition, our history and patterns of behavior. As for revealing the true nature of the proposed God ... not so much.


As for me, I will claim Eve's true legacy and taste of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, without fear of being cast from the garden. It is the inquisitive, the honest, the human thing to do. That is a very useful allegory in context, if we can ignore the editorial comments such as, "because they were ashamed."

It is based on the idea that there is a being who interjects himself into our affairs and controls stuff.

people to use prayer as they would requesting wishes from a Fairy Godfather/mother. It doesn't work that way. Soren Kirkkegaard had an interesting thought about prayer. It affects the person doing the praying. G-dness doesn't give a shit about baseball games, a fricking parking space, or anything else. Think the Big Band with G-d being a consciousness and spreading throughout.

Add to that the cherry picking of certain quotes to serve their agendas and you end up with something that can easily be grossly misrepresented and used to indoctrinate. That's not to say that there are not good things about religion or contained within religious texts, but only if one is allowed to look at it with a critical and discerning eye and not force-fed whatever agenda the people in charge have.

I couldn't stand the anti-women format any longer. When the Irish Catholics admitted to moving pedophiles around their parishes, that was the last straw. I knew it happened in the US but when the Irish said it happened there too, that was all I needed to hear. Gone and no regrets. Save the children!

who was a diehard Catholic. I think the last straw for her was when the American Council of Bishops or some such organization called sterilization "evil." She had her tubes tied after having nine kids. I will never forget her face when she read the quote to me. Fuck the Catholic Church.

of silver.

Today's televangelists sell Christ millions of times a day for millions of $$$.

Never thought of it that way.

Apparently many people reject a lot of the hate, judgment, negativity, etc that comes along with conservatism. I grew up in a socially conservative church that was filled with hateful people aggressively pressuring us to vote Republican and reject the sinful ways of abortion, gays, premarital sex, etc.

This is why many social conservatives are against feminism and equal opportunity. Lest those uppity women forget their place and get too big for their britches.



On a lighter note:

Go figure.

Good for them. We all should wise up, and understand that the churches are only out to control us and take our money, just as are some elements of the government.

is one of the biggest driving factors. This is especially prevalent in sex scandals, whether it is concerning 'deeply religious' right wing politicians or the Catholic church for example. The Catholic church is a particularly egregious example where not only were many children sexually abused by priests, but the hierarchy within the church knowingly and actively covered it up. That would be my guess as to one of the main reasons why women were/are leaving the Catholic church in droves.

It took me a little longer to stop believing in the other fairy tale creature, the universal Sky Daddy.

I guess when people grow up and mature, they reject idiotic bullshit like religion and start looking at logic and intelligence. But, if you believe in fairy tales as an adult, don't expect me to relate to you as an adult.

for myself -

As a child I was taken to church and Sunday School (Methodist, so nothing crazy) every single Sunday until I was 19 and moved out of my parents' house. I've read the Bible straight through two or three times, some parts of it more times than I can count. I know the drill. I know what I believe (the "love your neighbor" part of it) and what I don't believe (the "holy" or "divine" part of it), and at this point in my life I'm not likely to change my mind, so I see no reason at all to waste my time going to church. It's just a big social club anyway, and a way for people to feel superior. Who needs it?

amazed the hell out of me when she did it and I was as proud as could be of her for it.

Worst indoctrinations about limiting women. Many later christian denominations ordain women and place them in leadership roles. Decades ago I left one of those discriminatory denominations over feminist ideals, but screw all three of them and any look-a-likes. The last three churches I've attended have women pastors.

Imagine.

Too little progress, at much too slow a pace, but undeniably the plight of women since the 1950's has improved by a great deal. A more secure future and equality make it a lot easier to walk away from the control mechanism that is the Catholic Church.

I am raised Catholic and became an atheist by the time I was 10 or 11. There is so much illogical nonsense in the catechism that I could spend years unwinding it all. Suffice it to say, women who continue to struggle but have begun to receive (slightly) better treatment have seen a path out of the idiocy and are availing themselves of it.

It is also why the most virulent, anti-feminists are universally religious dolts.

A bunch of self righteous men, who believe woman came from a man's rib, trying to tell us what to do. Assholes. I'm not sure we'll make significant inroads against misogyny until the big three are gone. Can I say how much I hate religion.

Saw this on a bumper sticker:

The most important decision a woman can make isn't yours.

I came to the conclusion that it's all BS that's built to self-perpetuate, amass funds and control people (particularly women).

According to Clifford Geertz, religion is &quot 1) a system of symbols (2) which acts to establish powerful, pervasive and long-lasting moods and motivations in men (3) by formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and (4) clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that (5) the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic."

(I added the emphasis on 'men' in the quote)

I joined a Bible study group. The leader of the group started talking about how women should not read the Bible but listen to their husbands and how they interpret the Bible. Also that only men could preach the word of God from the pulpit . My reaction to that was that men have not done a good job of it in the last 2,000 years so why would God mind if women helped out, understood the Bible and spread the good word. The response from the men and the women was total silence. I look back on that and know that was one of the moments that contributed to me being an atheist now.