Religion

Eugene

(61,900 posts) Thu Jul 28, 2016, 04:19 PM Jul 2016

Judge Rejects Request in Minnesota Archdiocese Bankruptcy

Source: Associated Press

Judge Rejects Request in Minnesota Archdiocese Bankruptcy

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS MINNEAPOLIS — Jul 28, 2016, 3:39 PM ET

A federal judge has declined to include parishes and other church properties among assets in the bankruptcy of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis.

U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Robert Kressel ruled Thursday on the request by a committee representing clergy abuse victims. The committee wanted to consolidate the assets of various entities in the archdiocese, which would have meant more money to pay victims' claims.

The Star Tribune reports ( http://strib.mn/2akLEEr ) Kressel wrote that the victims' attorneys failed to show that the benefits of consolidation outweighed the harm to those entities.

Jeff Anderson, an attorney for victims, issued a statement accusing the archdiocese of hiding assets and promised an appeal.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/judge-rejects-request-minnesota-archdiocese-bankruptcy-40967211

__________________________________________________________________________

Source: The Star Tribune

Bankruptcy judge rejects abuse victims' bid to tap Twin Cities Archdiocese parishes, etc.

Victims' attorney Jeff Anderson slams ruling, promises to appeal.

By Jean Hopfensperger Star Tribune JULY 28, 2016 — 2:43PM

Parishes and other church properties cannot be included among the assets in the bankruptcy of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, a federal judge ruled Thursday.

U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Robert Kressel denied the request by a committee representing clergy abuse victims to consolidate the assets of various entities in the archdiocese, which would have the effect of increasing the money available to settle the victims’ claims.

Kressel wrote that he lacked the authority to consolidate the assets of the Catholic entities assets involved, including 187 parishes, Catholic schools, cemeteries and the Catholic Community Foundation of Minnesota.

Even if he did have authority, the victims’ committee “failed to allege sufficient facts” to support the consolidation, he said.

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19 replies

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Judge Rejects Request in Minnesota Archdiocese Bankruptcy (Original Post) Eugene Jul 2016 OP

The Vatican was giving orders to destroy documents so they should have their assets included Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #1

Is that in the Bankruptcy Code? rug Jul 2016 #2

The Vatican is the controling power so they should be held responsible Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #9

Not under the Bankruptcy Code. rug Jul 2016 #10

I would settle for them throwing the priests of the Vatican in prison Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #11

Good for you. But that also is not under the Bankruptcy Code. rug Jul 2016 #13

They broke laws they need to be punished Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #14

What laws do you intend to use to do that? rug Jul 2016 #15

Suppose you are right Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #16

Actually, there's a good case to be made to prosecute them under several legal theories and statutes rug Jul 2016 #17

Perhaps if the church had cleaned up their messes as they occured instead of hiding them Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #18

No that sentiment existed long, long before this. rug Jul 2016 #19

The Vatican doesn't own those assets. Igel Jul 2016 #4

No it's not simple, and that's the RCC's fault (and perhaps intention). trotsky Jul 2016 #5

Follow the Money Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #8

I wonder why you left this out: rug Jul 2016 #12

The Church set that up recently, to sue-proof itself Brettongarcia Jul 2016 #6

In the news reports I heard ..... The Vatican issued orders to destroy documents Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #7

Naturally. trotsky Jul 2016 #3

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)

1. The Vatican was giving orders to destroy documents so they should have their assets included

Reply to Eugene (Original post)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 05:00 PM

Jul 2016

rug

(82,333 posts)

2. Is that in the Bankruptcy Code?

Reply to Angry Dragon (Reply #1)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 05:25 PM

Jul 2016

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)

9. The Vatican is the controling power so they should be held responsible

Reply to rug (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 03:00 PM

Jul 2016

rug

(82,333 posts)

10. Not under the Bankruptcy Code.

Reply to Angry Dragon (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:02 PM

Jul 2016

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)

11. I would settle for them throwing the priests of the Vatican in prison

Reply to rug (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:06 PM

Jul 2016

rug

(82,333 posts)

13. Good for you. But that also is not under the Bankruptcy Code.

Reply to Angry Dragon (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:08 PM

Jul 2016

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)

14. They broke laws they need to be punished

Reply to rug (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:11 PM

Jul 2016

need to lose their christian membership cards

rug

(82,333 posts)

15. What laws do you intend to use to do that?

Reply to Angry Dragon (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:12 PM

Jul 2016

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)

16. Suppose you are right

Reply to rug (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:15 PM

Jul 2016

They have no respect for god's laws why should they have any respect for mans' laws

rug

(82,333 posts)

17. Actually, there's a good case to be made to prosecute them under several legal theories and statutes

Reply to Angry Dragon (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:28 PM

Jul 2016

What some of the hierarchy has done is utterly indefensible under any moral basis.

The problem is, this has turned into a stew composing equal parts multi-million dollar personal injury suits, with very large fees to be made, and long-standing anti-Catholic sentiment that's been simmering for other reasons for decades.

It's a poor recipe for justice, especially human justice.

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)

18. Perhaps if the church had cleaned up their messes as they occured instead of hiding them

Reply to rug (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:32 PM

Jul 2016

there would not be as much anti-catholic sentiment

rug

(82,333 posts)

19. No that sentiment existed long, long before this.

Reply to Angry Dragon (Reply #18)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:38 PM

Jul 2016

Those currently revelling in it are like teenagers discovering sex.

Igel

(35,320 posts)

4. The Vatican doesn't own those assets.

Reply to Angry Dragon (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 10:47 AM

Jul 2016

Most people aren't clear on how things work when they're not really simple.

The Archdiocese most likely owns the property. It is its own entity. It's not a wholly-owned subsidiary of anybody, and is incorporated under the laws of the state it's in and is compliant with IRS regs which implement Congressional non-profits (and for-profit entreprises held by non-profits).

In some states dioceses may still be held by bishops, dunno.

Unless some Catholic church or organization has borrowed something or the Vatican has invested somewhere in the US, it doesn't own squat. Churches are built using local funds, often from that parish.

All those independent corporations work together, often speak with one voice, and contribute to the See. But that's because they cooperate and in addition to secular organization have an overriding religious organization chart.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)

5. No it's not simple, and that's the RCC's fault (and perhaps intention).

Reply to Igel (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 11:23 AM

Jul 2016

http://www.economist.com/node/21560536

...The picture that emerges is not flattering. The church’s finances look poorly co-ordinated considering (or perhaps because of) their complexity. The management of money is often sloppy. And some parts of the church have indulged in ungainly financial contortions in some cases—it is alleged—both to divert funds away from uses intended by donors and to frustrate creditors with legitimate claims, including its own nuns and priests. The dioceses that have filed for bankruptcy may not be typical of the church as a whole. But given the overall lack of openness there is no way of knowing to what extent they are outliers.

Thousands of claims for damages following sexual-abuse cases, which typically cost the church over $1m per victim, according to lawyers involved, have led to a liquidity crisis. This seems to have encouraged a pre-existing trend towards replacing dollars from the faithful with publicly raised debt as a way of financing church business. The church is also increasingly keen to defend its access to public health-care subsidies while claiming a right not to provide certain medical services to which it objects, such as contraception. This increased reliance on taxpayers has not been matched by increased openness and accountability. The church, like other religious groups in America, is not subject to the same disclosure requirements as other non-profits or private entities.

...

Some dioceses have, in effect, raided priests’ pension funds to cover settlements and other losses. The church regularly collects money in the name of priests’ retirement. But in the dioceses that have gone bust lawyers and judges confirm that those funds are commingled with other investments, which makes them easily diverted to other uses. Under Cardinal Bernard Law, the archdiocese of Boston contributed nothing to its clergy retirement fund between 1986 and 2002, despite receiving an estimated $70m-90m in Easter and Christmas offerings that many parishioners believed would benefit retired priests.

It's a fucking mess and it benefits the church and makes things harder for everyone else.

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)

8. Follow the Money

Reply to trotsky (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 02:59 PM

Jul 2016

For the catholic church it is ALL about power and money

rug

(82,333 posts)

12. I wonder why you left this out:

Reply to trotsky (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:07 PM

Jul 2016

OF ALL the organisations that serve America’s poor, few do more good work than the Catholic church: its schools and hospitals provide a lifeline for millions.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)

6. The Church set that up recently, to sue-proof itself

Reply to Igel (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 11:30 AM

Jul 2016

After pederastygate, to protect the Vatican assets, the Church is currently pretending that local Catholic churches, in different nations, are not tied to central, Vatican rule. So the Vatican is not liable for the actions of Churches outside Italy, etc..

It's completely inconsistent of course, with the 2,000 years of Catholic assertions that everyone in the Church takes his orders from the Pope.

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)

7. In the news reports I heard ..... The Vatican issued orders to destroy documents

Reply to Igel (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 02:58 PM

Jul 2016

Now if they were TRULY independent then the Vatican would have no say in local matters
You may dispute the Vatican giving those orders but the Archdiocese admitted this fact

trotsky

(49,533 posts)

3. Naturally.

Reply to Eugene (Original post)

Fri Jul 29, 2016, 09:16 AM

Jul 2016

Much more important for the church to hold on to its riches than pay restitution to its victims.

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