Very nice to hear. There's times I feel that I'm "not welcome here" due to my Christianity, so to read something like this is very heartening. My reciprocated love to you and yours.

welcome, but vital to the conversation. Thanks for being here.

You've stated quite clearly that the whole idea of Jesus' death and resurrection, and the salvation of sin through that sacrifice, is a distorted and outdated view of religion, and that no modern and "progressive religionists still hold to such medieval concepts.

"God" is just the driving energy of the universe, right? not that father, son, holy spirit nonsense..

I wonder if just perhaps if religious intolerance had denied to you that right to marry the one you wish to marry, you might feel just a tad cheesed off, miffed, or if nothing else, prone to note that fact when the subject arises?

And I would be pissed if I were gay and was denied the right that I have as a straight man. As it is, I think that it is unjust. My wife and I were married by a gay priest. He has a partner and their lives together were celebrated by the church, but they have no legal standing as a married couple here in Indiana. I think it speaks volumes about that priest's tolerance to do what he does. If there was ever a test of faith, to continue to do what he does in the face of that injustice, he would certainly be blessed.

I've worked hard for marriage equality in this state and will be deeply involve until here is justice for all.

The only reason you're not angry is because religious bigotry hasn't affected YOU personally in any significant way? And if it did, then, and only then would you be angry? As long as it only affects OTHER people's freedom to legally marry who they love, you're just fine with it?

to you and your wife.

First, let me say that I am married to an atheist. He's the most wonderful man I have ever known and I have no desire for him to be anything than what he is.

Secondly, I have been mulling around the idea of agnosticism. It is repeatedly said here that agnostic can only be used as a modifier. According to some, you are either an atheist or a theist. I reject that notion. I think it is possible to be agnostic, simply. I don't know - that is all it says. The need to impose a label, and by doing so be placed in one camp or another, is objectionable to me. As one whose views and thoughts are constantly evolving, I refuse to be placed in a camp I don't really identify with.

Thank you again for such a lovely post. Best to you and your wife and peace to you.

Do you believe in Inana? Do you believe in Amaterasu? Do you believe in Morrigan?

I'd be willing to bet that you don't. That means that as far as those three go, you're an atheist. Think about it this way: Imagine that you lived in a society where Inana was worshiped as the main deity. You don't believe in Inana. The rest of your society would regard you as a non-believer...an an atheist.

"Now wait," you might say. "I hadn't heard of them before now, how can I be an atheist?"

Let me answer that with a question: How could you have believed in them before you ever heard about them?

I think this whole meme that agnostic can only be used as a modifier and is the label adopted by cowards is pure, unadulterated bullshit. I think it's an attempt to make people take sides and I won't play it.

Gnosticism concerns knowledge. Consult a dictionary if you don't believe me.

Theism concerns belief. Consult a dictionary if you don't believe me.

Etymology of the word "agnostic"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=agnostic&searchmode=none

agnosticism
1870, from agnostic + -ism.

The Agnostic does not simply say, "I do not know." He goes another step and says with great emphasis that you do not know. {Robert G. Ingersoll}

agnostic (n.)
1870, "one who professes that the existence of a First Cause and the essential nature of things are not and cannot be known" {Klein} ; coined by T.H. Huxley (1825-1895), supposedly in September 1869, from Gk. agnostos "unknown, unknowable," from a- "not" + gnostos "to be) known" (see gnostic). Sometimes said to be a reference to Paul's mention of the altar to "the Unknown God," but according to Huxley it was coined with reference to the early Church movement known as Gnosticism (see Gnostic).

I ... invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of 'agnostic,' ... antithetic to the 'Gnostic' of Church history who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant. {T.H. Huxley, "Science and Christian Tradition," 1889}

The adjective is first recorded 1870.

Agnosticism is about knowledge, not belief.

I'm not even really interested in debating it. I think people can call themselves or classify themselves anyway they want to, and if someone designates themselves an agnostic as it pertains to religion, so be it. IMHO, this has all been a ploy to force people to join one camp or another.

Last edited Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:12 AM - Edit history (1)

Don't you mean "Now that my position has been demolished, I'm going to dismiss the whole argument as pointless, rather than admitting I was wrong"?

Claim your prize at the door.

and the proximity with which they strike the ground in relation to the plant that grew them comes to mind.

I'm sorry if this fact is getting in the way of your personal narrative, but sometimes you just have to accept that something you believe is false and get on with your life.

We will just define a word differently. This is my definition (note, it is a belief).


ag·nos·tic
noun?/agˈnästik/?
agnostics, plural

A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/agnostic?region=us

Feel free to use any definition you want.

What exactly is my personal narrative?

Lots of things can be framed in terms of beliefs. Sorry if I wasn't clear before.

What is the belief about?

I'll give you a hint: it's cleverly hidden in the 21 words following "A person who believes."

I'll give you another hint: it has 9 letters and rhymes with "college"

Theism is a belief in the existence of a god or gods that is independent from a belief about that existence can be known. That's why I say that one is about belief and the other about knowledge. The fundamental point is that they're about different things, so one is not an answer to a question about the other.

Answering "agnostic" to a question of whether or not you believe in a god or gods (notice how "believe in" is short for "believe in the existence of&quot is similar to answering "I like my carrots steamed" to the question "do you like hummus." It's an answer to a different question and can't be substituted.

The second part of that definition doesn't help you either since faith and disbelief aren't alternatives to each other. By that definition, an agnostic could be someone who is convinced that God exists by empirical evidence or personal revelation. They wouldn't claim faith and they certainly wouldn't claim disbelief. Faith is about reasoning, not belief.

While many educated guesses can be made from what you post here, only you know your personal narrative.

Thanks for all the *hints*.

I'm sticking with it. See you at the rodeo.

I was raised Episcopalian, and though I'm not religious or been back in over 35 years, I have great respect for that denomination. If you're not aware of him, you might look up Bishop John Shelby Spong. While I've not read his books, I have seen him speak (on TV) and was always impressed with his way of seeing things, religion-wise

They agreed not to argue about it.

You and your wife might enjoy the writings of John Shelby Spong.

He is FANTASTIC!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong

He is part of what was once called "The Jesus" Seminar" (as am I), and which has now broadened its research and is called "The Westar Institute." Local seminars are held weekly around the country, and hundred of us gather periodically to explore the latest issues.

Always refreshing to encounter a fellow atheist who is not angry and bitter at all people of faith. Here's to tolerance and openness.

are married to atheists. It's no big deal.