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rug

(82,333 posts)
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 07:23 AM Feb 2017

Bill Maher: Liberals Need to Understand Well Never Defeat Terrorism Unless We Reform Islam



by Josh Feldman | 10:39 pm, February 3rd, 2017

Bill Maher brought Sam Harris onto his show tonight to criticize liberals for not doing more to speak out against Islamic extremism.

They both agreed President Trump‘s travel ban was stupid and counterproductive, but Maher also said in talking about combating extremism, “We’re trying to find ways to disempower Donald Trump and the left is often not helping.”

At one point Maher pointed to the burqa and said that while he’s not in favor of banning them, liberals need to “stop saying that’s normal, that’s not normal.” If anything, he argued, the left should be outraged by a belief system that is blaming the women for the mens’ horniness.”

He also said that liberals need to stop arguing that “every culture is equally bad,” which led to Harris saying there aren’t Scientologists and Mormons trying to kill people who insult their faiths.

Maher said the proper liberal response here needs to be understanding that we’ll never defeat terrorism unless the Islamic faith is reformed.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/bill-maher-liberals-need-to-understand-well-never-defeat-terrorism-unless-we-reform-islam/

Sam Harris is the last person to lecture liberals on anything.
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Bill Maher: Liberals Need to Understand Well Never Defeat Terrorism Unless We Reform Islam (Original Post) rug Feb 2017 OP
Islam cannot be reformed from the outside. It has to reform itself, just like Christianity did. DetlefK Feb 2017 #1
Agreed. rug Feb 2017 #2
Cultural imperialism is a funny kind of shield. Igel Feb 2017 #6
In Harris' case, cultural imperialism is exactly what it is. rug Feb 2017 #7
Maher is an Islamaphobe Gothmog Feb 2017 #3
The burka has nothing to do with Islam. It's an institutionalized abuse that has been Squinch Feb 2017 #4
Good of these two white western males to decide for a billion Muslims guillaumeb Feb 2017 #5

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
1. Islam cannot be reformed from the outside. It has to reform itself, just like Christianity did.
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 07:47 AM
Feb 2017

Martin Luther Reformation (and stuff like the Calvinists and the Anglican Church) were only accepted because they came from within the church. There was authority behind this.
Similarly the hermetic reformation (which accidently lead to the birth of science as we know it, 200 years later): It was driven by artists and outsiders, but they were able to win over religious authorities to their point of view. Including Pope Alexander VI. And while the hermeticists were eventually reduced to a rabble of religious whackos, they left a cultural imprint that can still be found today, 500 years later.

Islam is structured differently: There is no accepted central authority that could lend power to any reform. A top-down-reformation is therefore impossible. The only thing that would work is changing the cultural mind-set of the Muslims to a more liberal one, changing the belief by changing the believer.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
2. Agreed.
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 08:04 AM
Feb 2017

There is something obnoxious about Harris and Maher telling them what they need to do. It's just another form of cultural imperialism that Harris can place beside his advocacy of war on a Muslim country.

Igel

(35,320 posts)
6. Cultural imperialism is a funny kind of shield.
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 06:37 PM
Feb 2017

It protects those we don't want to criticize, but allows us to run roughshod over those we do.

I'd argue that fundie Xians and gang bangers are each in a culture different from my own. I don't see anybody screaming cultural imperialism when somebody says that either needs to reform. In fact, I regard such claims often as a way to say, "There are facts too offensive to be said, however true they are and however important it is to recognize them. Instead, we'll make up a story that not only denies the ability to state the facts, but instead says that somehow these are worthy, important cultures." Well, not the two I named. Others, no less virulent, are what I have in mind.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
7. In Harris' case, cultural imperialism is exactly what it is.
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 08:48 PM
Feb 2017
It is time we admitted that we are not at war with "terrorism". We are at war with Islam. This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims, but we are absolutely at war with the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran. The only reason Muslim fundamentalism is a threat to us is because the fundamentals of Islam are a threat to us.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/dec/1/20041201-090801-2582r/

As a source of objective morality, the Bible is one of the worst books we have. It might be the very worst, in fact—if we didn't also happen to have the Qur'an.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/articles/2863

The dogma of multiculturalism has left a secular Europe very slow to address the looming problem of religious extremism among its immigrants. The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists. To say that this does not bode well for liberalism is an understatement: It does not bode well for the future of civilization.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-end-of-liberalism

The position of the Muslim community in the face of all provocations seems to be: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we will kill you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/losing-our-spines-to-save_b_100132.html

There are others.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
4. The burka has nothing to do with Islam. It's an institutionalized abuse that has been
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 09:59 AM
Feb 2017

accepted in some places.

I'll fight to the death for the rights of women to wear hijab. (And by that I mean hijab. I don't mean, as is often described in DU, just popping on a headscarf and taking it off. Hijab is a way of life that includes a headscarf but also includes many other acts of "modesty" that are required of women but not men.) I think hijab is a misogynistic custom, but it is a religious practice.

Burqa is just institutionalized secular abuse whose purpose is to erase the public identity of the woman, and I think it should be banned in the US. When people whose traditions include cannibalism and slavery and trading of women come into the US, we don't say, "Well, it's their custom so we have to let them do it." The burqa is the same.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
5. Good of these two white western males to decide for a billion Muslims
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 11:36 AM
Feb 2017

what reforms are needed.

More simplistic cultural imperialism from a country that loves to decide for others what is acceptable.

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