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Heddi

(18,312 posts)
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 11:19 AM Mar 2017

Why so many conservative Christians feel like a persecuted minority

http://theweek.com/articles/684365/why-many-conservative-christians-feel-like-persecuted-minority

Is America a post-Christian nation? For many true believers, it certainly feels that way.

This is largely the topic of Rod Dreher's The Benedict Option: A Strategy for Christians in a Post-Christian Nation, which may be the most important statement of its kind since Richard John Neuhaus' The Naked Public Square, the 1984 book that Dreher's implicitly seeks to supplant. Like Neuhaus, Dreher provides devout Christians with a gripping metaphor that both describes the present moment and sets out a course of action in response to it.

Written in the wake of Ronald Reagan's first successful presidential campaign, in which evangelical Protestants played a decisive role for the first time, The Naked Public Square aimed to lend theological heft to an ascendant religious right. Jerry Falwell was correct: Devout Christians did constitute a "moral majority." But if they hoped to truly gain, hold, and wield political power, they needed to make their case in more sophisticated and civically appealing terms.

...

During the Obama years, the religious right began to suspect that it had decisively lost the culture war. Secular liberal elites had finally succeeded in stripping the public square of religiously grounded moral arguments — and their victory was accomplished not by thwarting democracy but by riding it to power. The moral majority had become a moral minority, with devoutly religious voters hemmed in on all sides, immersed in an increasingly hostile secular culture and incapable of mustering the votes to fight back at the national level. If the U.S. wasn't a secular society in 1984, in 2017 it apparently is.
...
Dreher's The Benedict Option is very much an expression of this bleak outlook — and it goes far beyond the United States. In his opening pages, Dreher informs his readers that "the light of Christianity is flickering out all over the West." "There are people alive today," he writes, "who may live to see the effective death of Christianity within our civilization. ... This may not be the end of the world, but it is the end of a world, and only the willfully blind would deny it."
...
Dreher's concerns about persecution may be somewhat exaggerated, but they aren't delusional. Now that same-sex marriage has been declared a constitutional right, the full weight of anti-discrimination law is poised to bear down on those whose faith precludes them from accepting the licitness of such arrangements. That has inspired many religious conservatives (and a few liberals, like myself) to demand new laws to strengthen the First Amendment's religious liberty protections, specifically to clarify that the "free exercise" clause is not limited to what takes place within the walls of a church.


....
I doubt Dreher would think so — because Christians would still find themselves living in a country in which a range of authorities within civil society constantly convey the message that same-sex marriage is good and opposing it is bigotry, in which pornography is ubiquitous, and in which gender is increasingly treated as a human construct entirely disconnected from nature, marriage, procreation, and a divinely authored order of things.

But why is that such a problem? Don't Orthodox Jews and observant Muslims, who hold analogous views about sex, manage to live and thrive in the United States, despite its sexual turmoil and lasciviousness? Indeed they do. But they are and have always been tiny minorities in America — which means that, in the decisive respect, they already practice something like the Benedict Option. They don't need to be taught how to preserve themselves in the face of constant counter-religious temptations.
....

Christianity in all of its manifold forms and expressions isn't about to disappear, but comprehensive Christianity — a holistic vision of God and humanity, sexuality and sin, marriage and procreation — has been dethroned. Those of us who see a necessary moral advance in this revolution should be capable of acknowledging that it also entails a significant loss.

And for some of our fellow citizens, the loss is intensely personal.

......
The poor babies! I feel so badly for them. I had no idea how easy it was to be persecuted when you're the majority

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why so many conservative Christians feel like a persecuted minority (Original Post) Heddi Mar 2017 OP
New Poll Finds Religious Rights Agenda To Be Extremely Unpopular Me. Mar 2017 #1
Well it ain't just the conservative ones who feel persecuted, either. trotsky Mar 2017 #2
They are not the only ones with a persecution complex. hrmjustin Mar 2017 #3
I have encountered an Episcopalian or two who thinks he understands the experience of atheists... Act_of_Reparation Mar 2017 #9
I know an Episcopalian who may have run his mouth off once or twice and was not as understanding hrmjustin Mar 2017 #20
Fascinating analysis in the article. Beartracks Mar 2017 #4
It's because to many of these Christians...Their divorce is different from other's divorces. Tikki Mar 2017 #5
you nailed it... dhill926 Mar 2017 #6
That's not a reasonable portrayal of many of them. Igel Mar 2017 #7
Many are hypocrites...I stand by my statement...some are not. Tikki Mar 2017 #8
A question to ask them: Angry Dragon Mar 2017 #10
I read a book a looong time ago about all the gods that had no believers anymore Heddi Mar 2017 #11
If a god is remembered, are they really gone?? Angry Dragon Mar 2017 #12
If they have no believers, do they still exist? Heddi Mar 2017 #13
Does a god have to have a believer to exist Angry Dragon Mar 2017 #14
But chaos wasn't the first creator god Heddi Mar 2017 #15
I have been lead to believe that Chaos was the first Creator god Angry Dragon Mar 2017 #16
But what if there were other creator god Heddi Mar 2017 #17
I guess that would be hard to prove Angry Dragon Mar 2017 #18
I personally look to science for the answers Heddi Mar 2017 #19
that is what is wrong with organized religion Angry Dragon Mar 2017 #21
One of the many problems with it Heddi Mar 2017 #22
........... Angry Dragon Mar 2017 #23
One of the nicest persons I ever met was my Mother-in-Law...she believed the Earth Tikki Mar 2017 #27
There was a book by Neil Gaiman with temporary311 Mar 2017 #24
I wonder if that's it? Heddi Mar 2017 #25
That rings a distant bell... truebluegreen Mar 2017 #30
No not really a Sci-Fi person but I think this book would be considered "sci-fi" Heddi Mar 2017 #31
They are neither persecuted nor Christian. C_U_L8R Mar 2017 #26
"Restore faith to its proper mantle" Thomas Hurt Mar 2017 #28
Their rank hypocrisy has made a lot of people dislike them intensely Warpy Mar 2017 #29
It's pretty easy to feel like a persecuted minority... Act_of_Reparation Mar 2017 #32
Evangelicals went 81-19 for Trump BeyondGeography Mar 2017 #33

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
2. Well it ain't just the conservative ones who feel persecuted, either.
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 11:58 AM
Mar 2017

Liberal ones sometimes encounter posts on anonymous message boards that are less than complimentary about religion! The horrors! Well to be fair, Jesus did warn them they would be persecuted.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
3. They are not the only ones with a persecution complex.
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 12:10 PM
Mar 2017

I have encountered an atheist or two on this board who also suffer from a persecution complex.

But IRL conservative Christians definitely have an annoying persecution complex.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
9. I have encountered an Episcopalian or two who thinks he understands the experience of atheists...
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 05:12 PM
Mar 2017

...enough to dictate their feelings to them.

What a coincidence.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
20. I know an Episcopalian who may have run his mouth off once or twice and was not as understanding
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 06:39 PM
Mar 2017

as he should have been, but my point still stands.

Beartracks

(12,819 posts)
4. Fascinating analysis in the article.
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 12:12 PM
Mar 2017

It provides some context for the persecution complex.

I wonder why the author, as a liberal, agrees with many conservative Christians that new laws should "strengthen the First Amendment's religious liberty protections, specifically to clarify that the 'free exercise' clause is not limited to what takes place within the walls of a church."

=======================

Tikki

(14,559 posts)
5. It's because to many of these Christians...Their divorce is different from other's divorces.
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 12:49 PM
Mar 2017

Their infidelities are different from those sinners.
Their using Gov. aid is....different from others on Gov. aid.
Their abortion was different from other's.
Their premarital sex is different for men then women.
Their bad choices were different than other's who must be condemned.
Their need to over populate is different than poc having children.
Their 15 guns and rifles to protect your home is different than poc's need.
Their drug use is different and after you get Gov. help the programs should be discontinued.
Their gaming the system is different than people needing a hand up.
They run to a religious institution, ask for forgiveness and run right back to their old ways.
etc....

They ARE HYPOCRITES and they hate that we see it in them.

Tikki



Igel

(35,323 posts)
7. That's not a reasonable portrayal of many of them.
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 04:55 PM
Mar 2017

I fail to help the poor. I think I should help the poor.

My actions are at odds with my beliefs.

I have three options. I can say that my beliefs are right, but they don't apply to me; instead, they apply to others. That makes me a hypocrite.

I can say my beliefs are right but I fail to live up to them. The consequence of that is either guilt without resolve or an attempt to improve my fidelity to my beliefs (a necessary part of repentance, old-style). That's not hypocrisy; that's failing to reach an ideal.

I can say that my beliefs, well, they're really a carry-over from an older time. My beliefs are wrong, and my actions (and those of others) are justified--don't judge me, I won't judge you, and we'll all be happy.

More so-called Xians are in the third category than the second, I think. Some are in the first. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Then again, a fair number of so-called progressives are in the third category, not the second. Those who insist that taxes be raised, but put the tax increase starting a few thousand dollars about their gross pay. Those who call for additional help for the poor, and point to others as the holders of that responsibility. Those who insist on respect, but can't show it; who insist on inclusivity, but rail against factions they feel must be excluded. Some of them are hypocrites; some just fail to live up to their ideals. Again, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

And yet others make this fine distinction on some kind of unseen principle which says that some parts of a category are applicable but not all parts: Their system of values is consistent, but twisted almost perfectly into their image. It's like a molten image, cast so that all that they are is perfect and all that is not them is transgression. With a Christian, I would say that he's set himself up as his own God and lawgiver; with a non-Xian, I lack an analogy, except to say that such a person considers himself (or herself) the measure of all things, esp. of others.

Tikki

(14,559 posts)
8. Many are hypocrites...I stand by my statement...some are not.
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 05:06 PM
Mar 2017

Not living up to your expectations does not make a person a hypocrite.

Stating and acting in a way and then condemning a person for that same
statement or action is hypocritical.

Admitting to oneself that they are acting hypocritical is the beginning of understanding
that they are actually not martyrs.

Tikki
please read my statement...I said many, not all.

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
11. I read a book a looong time ago about all the gods that had no believers anymore
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 05:33 PM
Mar 2017

wish I could remember the name...barely remember the premise other than it was a collection of dieties whose believers were all dead and gone, but they (the gods) were all still around. I think it was a good book if I remember correctly. Interesting premise, though.

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
13. If they have no believers, do they still exist?
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 05:42 PM
Mar 2017

Or does the death of the last believer signal the death of the god?

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
14. Does a god have to have a believer to exist
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 05:46 PM
Mar 2017

or is knowing of a god enough??


Chaos, the first ceator god
Zeus

to start with

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
15. But chaos wasn't the first creator god
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 05:48 PM
Mar 2017

there were other creator god myths before him/it

so are they all derivative of the original belief/knowledge?

If not, then who was the real creator? Because it can't be god and chaos and etc etc

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
17. But what if there were other creator god
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 05:56 PM
Mar 2017

but we don't know about them b/c their believers died off or were killed off before they could spread the word. Chaos got all the press but did none of the hard work.

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
18. I guess that would be hard to prove
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 05:59 PM
Mar 2017

Man needed gods to explain why things were as they were ........... to this day for many

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
19. I personally look to science for the answers
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 06:06 PM
Mar 2017

and I am okay if science says "I don't know" or "we used to think it was X but now we believe it's Y"

that's kind of cool to me.

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
21. that is what is wrong with organized religion
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 06:48 PM
Mar 2017

most people once they get to the part where they believe they stop questioning

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
22. One of the many problems with it
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 06:57 PM
Mar 2017

I can't abide by "God works in mysterious ways" as an answer to a problem. It's a cop-out. The sign of a mind that is to weak or lazy to look for answers. "I don't know" is a perfectly good answer. One doesn't have to make up things. I tell my patients all the time "I don't know," when they ask me things that I truly don't know. SOmetims I'll end with "...but I'll find out and let you know," and sometimes "I don't know" is it. I don't know why you got cancer. I don't know why your mom is dying while bad people seem to live long and prosper.

I love the quest for knowledge and the application of science in the world. I love looking at things and saying "I wonder why..." and then trying to find out myself. A pat "because god wanted that way" has never been, and will never be satisfying.

There have been so many times when I wished I could be comforted by prayer, or satisfied with a belief in God. Trust me, it would have probably made the bad time a bit more bearable, the painful times a bit more tolerable. But I feel, for me, it would be a lie.

Why did my mom die so young? Why did she have a protracted death? I don't need a comforting answer from a preacher or a prayer. I know why she died -- my education in science and medicine explain it very well. I know why it was protracted. The events surrounding her death would be no less true if they were couched in an idea that God needed another Angel, or that she's not suffering anymore. Rather, I am comforted knowing that everything that could and should be done, medically, was done. Her body was ill and any additional measures would have just prolonged an already incredibly poor outcome. I'm comforted knowing that her health care team were judicious in their use of pain medication when her endotracheal tube was removed. It helped control the pain she was in, helped calm any anxiety she was feeling, and had the added benefit of slowing her respirations to allow for a peaceful death.

When the chaplain came in (as she did every day), I allowed her to pray for my mom, because that's what my mom believed. I didn't pray with her, and I didn't pray for her because that's not what I believed. I also let them know very nicely that i wasn't interested in any spiritual platitudes of eternal life and being with God. That was her belief, for sure, but she knew to keep me out of it while she was alive.

I like knowing the answers, even if they're painful, and even if, in the end, the answer is "I don't know."

Tikki

(14,559 posts)
27. One of the nicest persons I ever met was my Mother-in-Law...she believed the Earth
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 07:51 PM
Mar 2017

was 6,000 years old among other beliefs.

I don't believe that. I know something different.

We loved each other, so these beliefs/not beliefs never came between us.

That sent a life long message to me.

LOVE IS STRONG.

Tikki

temporary311

(955 posts)
24. There was a book by Neil Gaiman with
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 07:29 PM
Mar 2017

that premise. Think it's being made into a tv series on FX. American Gods, I think?

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
25. I wonder if that's it?
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 07:37 PM
Mar 2017

I read a lot of books...a lot...so often I can't remember author or book names...

will check it out though. If not, I'm sure I would still enjoy it!

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
31. No not really a Sci-Fi person but I think this book would be considered "sci-fi"
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 08:22 PM
Mar 2017

I mean, I'll read anything good and have read SciFi books in the past, but that and fantasy aren't really my genres. A few of my DU/FB friends have recommended...some guy....Terry Pratchett? I had no idea he had such a massive bibliography. Jeeze. So I'm giving Discworld a go (along with a few other books at the same time)

C_U_L8R

(45,007 posts)
26. They are neither persecuted nor Christian.
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 07:47 PM
Mar 2017

These are plainly 'us versus them' propaganda tactics.
The ones saying it the most and loudest are the ones doing
the dividing and conquering - quite successfully

Thomas Hurt

(13,903 posts)
28. "Restore faith to its proper mantle"
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 07:54 PM
Mar 2017

The real mantle of the Christian faith is listed below. What Trump said about restoring faith to its proper mantle is christo-fascist theocracy because there is not a single christian in this country being persecuted. What christian's call persecution is simply that they don't get to foist their faith on others and are restrained from violating the constitutional rights of others in the name of religion.

1. around 70% of Americans are Christian of one flavor or another, that is 210,000,000
2. there are christian radio stations in every market in the US
https://tools.wmflabs.org/wp-world/googlmaps-proxy.php...
3. there are numerous christian publishing houses
4. there are christian book stores in the US
5. you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a church
6. this country has multi million dollar mega churches and legacy denominational churches and small mom and pop churches
7. this country has the huge Mormon church, which is christian no matter how much others protest that holds political and social sway over a whole state and parts of at least two others
8. and of course the catholic church, a powerhouse itself
9. there is fatih based initiatives office in the WH
10. Christians hold around 90% of seats in Congress
11. Christians have lobbyists in DC
12. Christian websites and apologetics are rife on the internet
13. Christian faiths of all kinds have tv shows on public access and cable networks
14. no christian is prevented from going to church
15. no one is making a christian get an abortion or use birth control
16. no one is making a christian marry someone of their same sex
17. the Congress has passed legislation to help protect, ostensibly all religions but they in practice protect christianity almost entirely.
18. There are thousands of private christian schools from kindergarten to universities in this country.
19. Christians are free to annoy others with their proselytizing
20. Christians are free to leave this country and annoy foreigners with their proselytizing
21. the are free to pray to themselves anytime
22. they are free to pray in public aloud as long as it is not sanctioned by the government
23. they are free to raise their children in their faith, they do not have let them watch worldly, tv or listen worldy music or go to secular schools etc.
24. churches don't have to pay taxes and yet receive the protection of our military and fire and police

Warpy

(111,300 posts)
29. Their rank hypocrisy has made a lot of people dislike them intensely
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 08:04 PM
Mar 2017

but there is no way they can say they are persecuted in this god soaked, majority Christian country. Doing so just exposes more of their hypocrisy in trying to assume a martyr's mantle that doesn't belong to them and never will.

What they're feeling now is that their numbers are dwindling as the faithful lose faith in prosperity theology, and millennium fever fades away, and as the young reject the paranoia, intolerance, rigidity, and smugness of their elders.

None of these are bad things but instead of playing the martyr and blaming the larger world, right wing Christians need to turn to introspection and examine what they might have been doing wrong, starting with the gospels and leaving the OT behind.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
32. It's pretty easy to feel like a persecuted minority...
Mon Mar 13, 2017, 08:55 PM
Mar 2017

...when you have no idea what being a persecuted minority really feels like.

BeyondGeography

(39,377 posts)
33. Evangelicals went 81-19 for Trump
Tue Mar 14, 2017, 04:29 PM
Mar 2017

who is completely amoral. So maybe he's right about Christianity dying, at least in this country.

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