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trotsky

(49,533 posts)
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 04:14 PM Nov 2017

The Uncertain Future of the Religious Left

https://daily.jstor.org/the-uncertain-future-of-the-religious-left/

...By the end of the nineteenth century, liberal religion’s optimism, ecumenism, and commitment to social reform were on the ascent. But this rise was swiftly curtailed by the two world wars and the transhemispheric existential crisis that followed. By the mid-twentieth century, Christian evangelicalism had eclipsed liberal Christianity as the predominant form of public religious expression in the United States.

While many commentators have attributed the Christian right’s political dominance to its theological clarity, one shouldn’t discount the wide appeal of liberal religion’s tenets. Liberal religion is not, writes Matthew Hedstrom, “the final stage on a progressive path toward secularity,” but rather, according to Gary Dorrien, “a rational and experiential third way between overbelief and disbelief.” Dorrien, however, is skeptical of liberal religion ever becoming the preeminent form of American religiosity, since its partisans must always “sail against the values and politics of the dominant culture.”

Between its countercultural tilt and its theological plasticity, liberal religion has never been entirely comfortable within the confines of the church. Sometimes this has resulted in outright skepticism, as when John Murray—the reluctant founder of the first Universalist congregation in America—resisted being ordained a minister in the late 1700s. Or when Ralph Waldo Emerson abandoned the Unitarian ministry, in 1832. At other times, however, this institutional discomfort has inspired immense creativity.

...According to the Public Religion Research Institute’s most recent study of patterns of belief and affiliation in American religious life, the religiously unaffiliated now comprise nearly a quarter of the U.S. population. For the first time in history, they are the nation’s largest religious bloc, with white evangelical Protestants a distant second. While some congregations have thrived in the twenty-first century, the steady erosion of church memberships is unlikely to abate. It’s difficult to imagine, for instance, a reversal of “the secularization of Sunday” that resulted from the loosening of restrictions states had historically used to regulate Sunday activities.


Kinda makes you wonder if it's "religious liberalism" or just liberalism in general, which some people graft onto their religious beliefs. Pushing religion as the basis runs the danger of alienating our country's largest religious bloc, as the article notes.
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The Uncertain Future of the Religious Left (Original Post) trotsky Nov 2017 OP
Oh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! guillaumeb Nov 2017 #1
It should be noted that neither I nor the article said any of that. trotsky Nov 2017 #2
Following your example here. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #3
If you say so. trotsky Nov 2017 #4
From your link: yallerdawg Nov 2017 #13
Yep that sure is from my link. trotsky Nov 2017 #14
It is specifically about theism dying and religious liberalism. yallerdawg Nov 2017 #18
Could you point out exactly where the claim is made that "theism is dying"? trotsky Nov 2017 #20
Is your "literalism" a characteristic of fundamentalism? yallerdawg Nov 2017 #21
Thank you for conceding the point. trotsky Nov 2017 #22
you keep claiming religion goes back 300,000 years Voltaire2 Nov 2017 #24
What you mean is you will admit of no evidence. A different matter entirely. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #28
Er, no, there is no evidence. Voltaire2 Nov 2017 #30
Yes, as I said. You have convinced yourself. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #33
Your claims are fraught with confirmation bias. AtheistCrusader Nov 2017 #63
Speaking of mirrors, and confirmation bias, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #66
Do you have a point? AtheistCrusader Nov 2017 #68
I do. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #69
Please proceed, senator. AtheistCrusader Nov 2017 #71
Confirmation bias is everywhere evident in this group. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #73
It is everywhere in our species. AtheistCrusader Nov 2017 #75
And how, in your opinion, can one compensate? eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #77
Reason. AtheistCrusader Nov 2017 #78
And how does one de-link reason from a brain that contains guillaumeb Nov 2017 #79
Interesting material associated there. yallerdawg Nov 2017 #5
It is sad that you want to divide the party. trotsky Nov 2017 #7
"Secular fundamentalists." yallerdawg Nov 2017 #9
I agree, that was a very divisive choice of words by the Christian pastor Jim Wallis. trotsky Nov 2017 #10
Well, we've been doing so well as a party... yallerdawg Nov 2017 #11
Really? You are willing to dismiss the unaffiliated, America's *largest religious bloc*? trotsky Nov 2017 #12
It is noted that these "unaffiliated" vote Democrat. yallerdawg Nov 2017 #15
So you're OK with losing a group that votes overwhelmingly for Democrats? trotsky Nov 2017 #16
How is it an either/or? yallerdawg Nov 2017 #17
You tell me. trotsky Nov 2017 #19
I think yallerdawg understands what is going on here. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #29
I have no doubt you and your good friend yallerdawg share many viewpoints. trotsky Nov 2017 #44
'"Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare." Is this sexist?' well yes it is. Voltaire2 Nov 2017 #25
Exactly why it was pointed out... yallerdawg Nov 2017 #26
How would you propose we reach those who have moral concerns Mariana Nov 2017 #27
"Legal, safe, and rare." yallerdawg Nov 2017 #35
Unfettered? Mariana Nov 2017 #36
We don't need every Christian to win. yallerdawg Nov 2017 #37
And you believe we can get them Mariana Nov 2017 #38
Shame? Fetter? yallerdawg Nov 2017 #39
You said "unfettered abortion" did you not? Mariana Nov 2017 #40
The unaffiliated (i.e., people who are NOT Christians) are the largest religious bloc in the USA. trotsky Nov 2017 #46
The "unaffiliated" are Democratic voters. yallerdawg Nov 2017 #47
I see. trotsky Nov 2017 #48
You're taking me seriously. yallerdawg Nov 2017 #49
I tried to. trotsky Nov 2017 #50
Sad are the tactics in evidence. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #34
You mean yours? trotsky Nov 2017 #45
Illustrative of the sad tactics are your posts. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #54
I dunno, given the number of people who disagree with you... trotsky Nov 2017 #56
Again, proving my point about tactics and possible motive. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #60
You can have whatever opinion you want. trotsky Nov 2017 #62
I see the religious left as a Transition Stage... NeoGreen Nov 2017 #6
I agree. trotsky Nov 2017 #8
That's because the content of most of the religious texts Mariana Nov 2017 #23
An overbroad statement, followed by misframing, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #32
How much of the bible do you take literally, g-man? trotsky Nov 2017 #42
Your "conjecture", as you frame it, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #53
So how much of the bible do you take literally? n/t trotsky Nov 2017 #55
Are you admitting to the validity of my comment? eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #59
I'm asking you a question. trotsky Nov 2017 #61
You have asked this question before. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #65
Could you please link to your answer? trotsky Nov 2017 #80
Please link to your previous answer, g. trotsky Nov 2017 #83
Employ your power of investigation and analysis.. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #84
Ah, OK, just as I thought. trotsky Nov 2017 #86
And trying to reconcile the two is nearly impossible with honor. Pope George Ringo II Nov 2017 #51
Yes. We see that clearly in some of our discussions here. nt. Mariana Nov 2017 #58
Condescension is not the same as actual argument. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #31
It is all one should expect if... NeoGreen Nov 2017 #41
... trotsky Nov 2017 #43
Which illustrates my point very well. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #52
It does not matter if it was confirmed... NeoGreen Nov 2017 #57
The supernatural is by definition outside reality. Your knee is jerking. AtheistCrusader Nov 2017 #64
What is visible and observable depends on who is observing, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #67
Not in the sense that you mean it. AtheistCrusader Nov 2017 #70
And how did I mean it? eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #72
I'm sorry, I observed you in my own way and at my own time, and my subjective AtheistCrusader Nov 2017 #74
An excellent answer. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #76
Man, hold up a mirror Lordquinton Nov 2017 #81
Some people fear the truth. trotsky Nov 2017 #82
I want to hear more Lordquinton Nov 2017 #85

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
1. Oh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 04:17 PM
Nov 2017

Progressive theists are dying out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever shall we religious progressives do??????????????????

Will we religious progressives be extinct as soon as tomorrow as humankind inevitably evolves past our 300,000 years of previous religious heritage?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
2. It should be noted that neither I nor the article said any of that.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 04:18 PM
Nov 2017

That's all on you, g-man.

Do you have anything to say regarding the article's actual content?

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
13. From your link:
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 05:15 PM
Nov 2017
Liberal religion is not, writes Matthew Hedstrom, “the final stage on a progressive path toward secularity,” but rather, according to Gary Dorrien, “a rational and experiential third way between overbelief and disbelief.” Dorrien, however, is skeptical of liberal religion ever becoming the preeminent form of American religiosity, since its partisans must always “sail against the values and politics of the dominant culture.”

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
14. Yep that sure is from my link.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 05:18 PM
Nov 2017

And it says nothing about theism dying, or the other wild claims guillaumeb said.

Thank you for helping me prove him wrong, pal!

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
18. It is specifically about theism dying and religious liberalism.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 05:37 PM
Nov 2017

You repeatedly call out victory while your lying on the floor!

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
20. Could you point out exactly where the claim is made that "theism is dying"?
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 05:41 PM
Nov 2017

If anything, that quote to me seems to say rather the opposite - that liberal religion is a "rational and experiential third way between overbelief and disbelief." I still have yet to see anyone make (or document) the claim that "theism is dying."

Perhaps you'll be the first? Go for it!

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
21. Is your "literalism" a characteristic of fundamentalism?
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 05:57 PM
Nov 2017

Sure seems to be!

"Getting lost in the weeds," distraction, and obfuscation is a form of argument, I guess.

Not very informative, though.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
63. Your claims are fraught with confirmation bias.
Mon Nov 13, 2017, 02:11 PM
Nov 2017

These were thought to be expressions of 'fertility gods'. Now we're not so certain.

https://steemit.com/science/@deeallen/self-portraits-of-fertility-symbols-venus-figurines-of-upper-paleolithic-eurasia-nudity

Turns out they may just not have had full-body length mirrors.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
75. It is everywhere in our species.
Mon Nov 13, 2017, 03:16 PM
Nov 2017

Whether and how we choose to be aware of it, and compensate, is what matters.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
79. And how does one de-link reason from a brain that contains
Mon Nov 13, 2017, 03:30 PM
Nov 2017

confirmation bias? Given that we all have experiences that we rely on in forming our beliefs, none of us can truly be objective.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
5. Interesting material associated there.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 04:30 PM
Nov 2017
“The fact that one party has strategically used and abused religion, while the other has had a habitually allergic and negative response to religion per se, puts our side in a more difficult position in regard to political influence,” said the Rev. Jim Wallis, the evangelical social justice advocate who founded the Sojourners community and magazine in 1971.

“Most progressive religious leaders I talk to, almost all of them, feel dissed by the left,” he said. “The left is really controlled by a lot of secular fundamentalists.”


Still, Hillary Clinton’s snub of even moderate evangelicals in the 2016 presidential race squandered many opportunities to cut into Mr. Trump’s support. Where Barack Obama had worked hard in 2008 to show he would at least listen to evangelicals, Mrs. Clinton rebuffed interview requests from evangelical media outlets and signaled leftward moves on abortion rights that helped many conservative voters overcome their doubts about Mr. Trump.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/us/politics/politics-religion-liberal-william-barber.html

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
7. It is sad that you want to divide the party.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 04:36 PM
Nov 2017

As the article notes, unaffiliated are now the nation's largest religious bloc. Are you sure you want to alienate them?

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
9. "Secular fundamentalists."
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 04:54 PM
Nov 2017

Not divisive?

"Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare." Is this sexist? Is this rightwing capitulation? Is this more purity tests?

How many votes do we lose to 'fundamentalist' rigidity? This new religious intolerance?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
10. I agree, that was a very divisive choice of words by the Christian pastor Jim Wallis.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 04:58 PM
Nov 2017

We don't want to divide the party and scare away the largest religious bloc in the country. Shame on Wallis.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
11. Well, we've been doing so well as a party...
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 05:08 PM
Nov 2017

no need to worry about a few more votes.

Can't wait for our Supreme Court to start handing out new decisions after one more pick. No worries.

Or maybe - let's find 80,000 more votes out there so we don't lose in an "Electoral College landslide" again.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
12. Really? You are willing to dismiss the unaffiliated, America's *largest religious bloc*?
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 05:10 PM
Nov 2017

How divisive. Tsk, tsk.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
15. It is noted that these "unaffiliated" vote Democrat.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 05:18 PM
Nov 2017

How do we grow our base if we only appeal to the base?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
19. You tell me.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 05:38 PM
Nov 2017

This is exactly what you've been arguing. Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? Glad you are beginning to understand that.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
29. I think yallerdawg understands what is going on here.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 08:21 PM
Nov 2017

It is quite obvious. But not in the way that you seem to think.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
44. I have no doubt you and your good friend yallerdawg share many viewpoints.
Fri Nov 10, 2017, 10:13 AM
Nov 2017

Ask him what he thinks about prosperity gospel - he still hasn't answered me on that.

Voltaire2

(13,033 posts)
25. '"Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare." Is this sexist?' well yes it is.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 06:37 PM
Nov 2017

It categorizes abortion as a poor choice that should be avoided. It is not. It is one of many essential reproductive health care procedures that should be available to all women to use as needed without any stigmatization.

As Katha Pollit put it:


About the stigmatization of abortion, I feel that when we talk about abortion—”it should be safe, legal and rare,” which is how Hillary Clinton put it and how the Democratic Party often frames it, and/or “it’s the most difficult decision a woman makes,” you know, “it’s also terrible and agonizing”— you’re kind of conceding a lot to the people who say, “Yes, it is a terrible decision, it should be rare, let’s make it illegal, let’s make it really hard to get.” It’s very hard to say, “Here’s this terrible thing you’re going to do, so we have to keep it legal, so you won’t do it illegally.” That’s not a ringing cry that will rally people to the truth, which is: Abortion is a part of reproductive life, women’s reproductive lives. One in three American women will have an abortion by menopause. Sixty percent are already mothers. You know, so this picture we have of it’s the slutty teenager, it’s the cold-hearted, child-hating career woman, this is completely false. That’s not the typical abortion patient.

https://www.democracynow.org/2014/10/16/abortion_as_a_social_good_author

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
26. Exactly why it was pointed out...
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 06:51 PM
Nov 2017

that Hillary moved to the left on this issue/statement and lost voters who want abortion to NOT be considered just another method of birth control.

If we acknowledge no difference between a condom, a pill and terminating an unwanted pregnancy - then we are fundamentalists in the eyes of those who have moral concerns regardless of the "perceived" source.

Mariana

(14,857 posts)
27. How would you propose we reach those who have moral concerns
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 08:19 PM
Nov 2017

over women who terminate unwanted pregnancies? How do we appeal to such voters?

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
35. "Legal, safe, and rare."
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 08:52 PM
Nov 2017

Advocate and support all the alternatives for birth control to reduce abortion - but guarantee a woman's inviolable right to choose.

Who on earth supports unfettered abortion as a political position?

Last November we had a Supreme Court judge on the line! That alone may have turned the election, not just in the Rust Belt. NC? FLA?

Mariana

(14,857 posts)
36. Unfettered?
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 09:28 PM
Nov 2017

So step one is that we must oppose the Christians who are working to restrict women's access to effective birth control. I don't see how that won't alienate them. They think they're doing God's will, and we're going to come along and tell them they're doing it wrong.

So assuming we accomplish that, we're still going to have unwanted pregnancies because BC sometimes fails. What do you propose we do to fetter the women who wish to terminate their unwanted pregnancies? What will inspire the Christian voters who oppose abortion to vote Democratic?

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
37. We don't need every Christian to win.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 09:44 PM
Nov 2017

Believe it or not, there are plenty of Christians who are Democrats.

We just need a few more of them. Not less.

Mariana

(14,857 posts)
38. And you believe we can get them
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 09:53 PM
Nov 2017

By doing something about all these women having abortions. Because they don't like that. Do I understand correctly?

Tell me, is it adequate to shame the women, or must we fetter them as well?

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
39. Shame? Fetter?
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 10:09 PM
Nov 2017

I have no idea what you're off on now.

You think this is a game? (Obviously)

Keeping us in the minority and powerless - handing over the Supreme Court to the other end of fringy extremism - is not an example of progressive liberalism.

It's just another example of rigid fundamentalism.

Mariana

(14,857 posts)
40. You said "unfettered abortion" did you not?
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 11:02 PM
Nov 2017

You implied that is some kind of problem. If unfettered abortion is a problem, when attempting to win the votes of Christians, what do you think is the solution?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
46. The unaffiliated (i.e., people who are NOT Christians) are the largest religious bloc in the USA.
Fri Nov 10, 2017, 10:39 AM
Nov 2017

What's wrong with trying to win more of their votes?

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
47. The "unaffiliated" are Democratic voters.
Fri Nov 10, 2017, 11:01 AM
Nov 2017

We won the popular vote for president by nearly 3,000,000 votes.

I'm suggesting we need to draw in a few more by being more inclusive who didn't vote our way - and don't, from California to New York!

Let me give you an example.

I'm here in Alabama.

If every Democratic voter turned out and every Republican voter turned out - Democrats would lose every election. Every election!

Since 2010, we have been experiencing the Alabamafication of the United States. Maybe it snuck up on you, maybe you've been unaware, but it happened!

Assuring believers in Alabama (and now America) that there is no place for them, no accomodation, no compromise in the Democratic Party - we'll lose a lot more than just an election!

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
48. I see.
Fri Nov 10, 2017, 11:04 AM
Nov 2017

Back to your unproven assertion - but now you're doubling down on it. Now it's no longer just a few posts on DU, but a nationwide campaign conducted by horrible, evil nonbelievers to tell decent believin' folk that they are NOT WELCOME in the Democratic Party!

And yet you still can't provide any evidence this is true.

How laughable. It appears no one is taking you seriously - and for good reason.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
50. I tried to.
Fri Nov 10, 2017, 11:43 AM
Nov 2017

But I'm giving up now. You make up totally unsupported bullshit and use it to try and silence non-believers.

Non-believers are welcome in this party too, no matter how much you wish they'd go away.

Welcome to my ignore list. You are not worth my time.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
45. You mean yours?
Fri Nov 10, 2017, 10:15 AM
Nov 2017

Yeah, that's sad. When you've humiliated yourself into a corner again, with multiple people pointing and laughing at you, you pull out your sad references to "choirs" and "tactics" and such.

Perhaps you should try actually answering questions and defending your position. What a concept!

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
54. Illustrative of the sad tactics are your posts.
Fri Nov 10, 2017, 12:46 PM
Nov 2017

Perhaps you should admit of the possibility, however slight, that your opinions and pronouncements might not be shared as widely as you evidently feel that they are.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
56. I dunno, given the number of people who disagree with you...
Fri Nov 10, 2017, 12:52 PM
Nov 2017

and are telling you the problem may lie with you, and not others...

I'll happily admit the possibility it's me, but I think it's pretty damn slight.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
8. I agree.
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 04:37 PM
Nov 2017

The more liberal someone is, the less literally they seem to take religious texts in general.

Mariana

(14,857 posts)
23. That's because the content of most of the religious texts
Thu Nov 9, 2017, 06:14 PM
Nov 2017

is utterly disgusting. The only way to be a liberal and a Christian (for example), is to dismiss most of the Bible as false, as guillaumeb has done. Once you're reduced to trying to decide which parts are true and which aren't, it's only one more step to conclude that the whole thing is bullshit.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
53. Your "conjecture", as you frame it,
Fri Nov 10, 2017, 12:44 PM
Nov 2017

is rarely worded as such. It is generally worded as a condemnation that rejects dialogue.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
61. I'm asking you a question.
Mon Nov 13, 2017, 10:22 AM
Nov 2017

Please answer so I can understand if my statement is invalid.

How much of the bible do you take literally?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
86. Ah, OK, just as I thought.
Tue Nov 14, 2017, 01:16 PM
Nov 2017

You never said and now you know the hole you've dug for yourself, so you're back to your bag o' tricks.

I will just cherish the fact that the next time you make one of your screaming demands that someone link to a past post, I'll just provide a screencap of this post to fully illustrate your hypocrisy.

You keep being such an excellent Christian, g-man. You are truly setting a great example.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
51. And trying to reconcile the two is nearly impossible with honor.
Fri Nov 10, 2017, 12:26 PM
Nov 2017

Intellectual honesty is pretty much an inevitable casualty if you try to maintain both.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
64. The supernatural is by definition outside reality. Your knee is jerking.
Mon Nov 13, 2017, 02:19 PM
Nov 2017

Supernatural: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially f or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil

Reality: the state or quality of having existence or substance

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
74. I'm sorry, I observed you in my own way and at my own time, and my subjective
Mon Nov 13, 2017, 03:15 PM
Nov 2017

analysis cannot be repeated in your presence on demand. You'll just have to have faith.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
82. Some people fear the truth.
Tue Nov 14, 2017, 09:49 AM
Nov 2017

Oddly enough, often they are quite religious.

I'm sure it's a coincidence.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
85. I want to hear more
Tue Nov 14, 2017, 12:51 PM
Nov 2017

About how we should further alienate the largest voting block to appeal to a block that will never vote Dem.

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