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MineralMan

(146,331 posts)
Wed Dec 27, 2017, 04:33 PM Dec 2017

Recommended Reading for Denizens of the Religion Group

Arthur Schopenhauer was an old German philospher, who died in 1860. His writings are not read much any longer, but he's quite the writer. One of my favorite short writings of his was originally entitled, "The Art of Controversy," but a shortened version of it is called "38 Ways to Win an Argument."

Now, it's entirely possible that the gentleman wrote this as a tongue-in-cheek exercise, but anyone who frequents places where discussions of controversial issues are held will find much that is familiar in this bit of writing. It's 38 rules to follow when you really, really need to win an argument, regardless of the logic of things. I don't lead you to this to encourage using such strategies, but to assist in recognizing them. Here's a link to a nicely formatted version you can print out for future reference:

http://www.mnei.nl/schopenhauer/38-stratagems.htm

And here's the entire thing, which is in the public domain:

SCHOPENHAUER'S 38 STRATAGEMS, OR 38 WAYS TO WIN AN ARGUMENT

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), was a brilliant German philosopher. These 38 Stratagems are excerpts from "The Art of Controversy", first translated into English and published in 1896.

Schopenhauer's 38 ways to win an argument are:

Carry your opponent's proposition beyond its natural limits; exaggerate it. The more general your opponent's statement becomes, the more objections you can find against it. The more restricted and narrow his or her propositions remain, the easier they are to defend by him or her.

Use different meanings of your opponent's words to refute his or her argument.

Ignore your opponent's proposition, which was intended to refer to a particular thing. Rather, understand it in some quite different sense, and then refute it. Attack something different than that which was asserted.

Hide your conclusion from your opponent till the end. Mingle your premises here and there in your talk. Get your opponent to agree to them in no definite order. By this circuitious route you conceal your game until you have obtained all the admissions that are necessary to reach your goal.

Use your opponent's beliefs against him. If the opponent refuses to accept your premises, use his own premises to your advantage.

Another plan is to confuse the issue by changing your opponent's words or what he or she seeks to prove.

State your proposition and show the truth of it by asking the opponent many questions. By asking many wide-reaching questions at once, you may hide what you want to get admitted. Then you quickly propound the argument resulting from the opponent's admissions.

Make your opponent angry. An angry person is less capable of using judgement or perceiving where his or her advantage lies.

Use your opponent's answers to your questions to reach different or even opposite conclusions.

If your opponent answers all your questions negatively and refuses to grant any points, ask him or her to concede the opposite of your premises. This may confuse the opponent as to which point you actually seek them to concede.

If the opponent grants you the truth of some of your premises, refrain from asking him or her to agree to your conclusion. Later, introduce your conclusion as a settled and admitted fact. Your opponent may come to believe that your conclusion was admitted.

If the argument turns upon general ideas with no particular names, you must use language or a metaphor that is favorable in your proposition.

To make your opponent accept a proposition, you must give him or her an opposite, counter-proposition as well. If the contrast is glaring, the opponent will accept your proposition to avoid being paradoxical.

Try to bluff your opponent. If he or she has answered several of your questions without the answers turning out in favor of your conclusion, advance your conclusion triumphantly, even if it does not follow. If your opponent is shy or stupid, and you yourself possess a great deal of impudence and a good voice, the trick may easily succeed.

If you wish to advance a proposition that is difficult to prove, put it aside for the moment. Instead, submit for your opponent's acceptance or rejection some true poposition, as thoug you wished to draw your proof from it. Should the opponent reject it because he or she suspects a trick, you can obtain your triumph by showing how absurd the opponent is to reject a true proposition. Should the opponent accept it, you now have reason on your own for the moment. You can either try to prove your original proposition or maintain that your original proposition is proved by what the opponent accepted. For this, an extreme degree of impudence is required.

When your opponent puts forth a proposition, find it inconsistent with his or her other statements, beliefs, actions, or lack of action.

If your opponent presses you with a counter proof, you will often be able to save yourself by advancing some subtle distinction. Try to find a second meaning or an ambiguous sense for your opponent's idea.

If your opponent has taken up a line of argument that will end in your defeat, you must not allow him or her to carry it to its conclusion. Interrupt the dispute, break it off altogether, or lead the opponent to a different subject.

Should your opponent expressly challenge you to produce any objection to some definite point in his or her argument, and you have nothing much to say, try to make the argument less specific.

If your opponent has admitted to all or most of your premises, do not ask him or her directly to accept your conclusion. Rather draw the conclusion yourself as if it too had been admitted.

When your opponent uses an argument that is superficial, refute it by setting forth its superficial character. But it is better to meet the opponent with a counter argument that is just as superficial, and so dispose of him or her. For it is with victory that your are concerned, and not with truth.

If your opponent asks you to admit something from which the point in dispute will immediately follow, you must refuse to do so, declaring that it begs the question.

Contradiction and contention irritate a person into exaggerating his or her statements. By contractiong your opponent you may drive him or her into extending the statement beyond its natural limit. When you then contradict the exaggerated form of it, you look as though you had refuted the original statement your opponent tries to extend your own statement further than you intended, redefine your statement's limits.

This trick consists in stating a false syllogism. Your opponent makes a proposition and by false inference and distortion of his or her ideas you force from the proposition other propositions that are not intended and that appear absurd. It then appears the opponent's proposition gave rise to these inconsistencies, and so appears to be indirectly refuted.

If your opponent is making a generalization, find an instance to the contrary. Only one valid contradiciton is needed to overthrow the opponent's proposition.

A brilliant move is to turn the tables and use your opponent's arguments against him or herself.

Should your opponent surprise you by becoming particularly angry at an argument, you must urge it with all the more zeal. Not only will this make the opponent angry, it may be presumed that you put your finger on the weak side of his or her case, and that the opponent is more open to attack on this point than you expected.

This trick is chiefly practicable in a dispute if there is an audience who is not an expert on the subject. You make an invalid objection to your opponent who seems to be defeated in the eyes of the audience. This strategy is particularly effective if your objection makes the opponent look ridiculous or if the audience laughs. If the opponent must make a long, complicated explanation to correct you, the audience will not be disposed to listen.

If you find that you are being beaten, you can create a diversion that is, you can suddenly begin to talk of something else, as though it had bearing on the matter in dispose. This may be done without presumption if the diversion has some general bearing on the matter.

Make an appeal to authority rather than reason. If your opponent respects an authority or an expert, quote that authority to further your case. If needed, quote what the authority said in some other sense or circumstance. Authorities that your opponent fails to understand are those which he or she generally admires the most. You may also, should it be necessary, not only twist your authorities, but actually falsify them, or quote something that you have invented entirely yourself.

If you know that you have no reply to an argument that your opponent advances, you may, by a fine stroke of irony, declare yourself to be an incompetent judge.

A quick way of getting rid of an opponent's assertion, or throwing suspicion on it, is by putting it into some odious category.

You admit your opponent's premises but deny the conclusion.

When you state a question or an argument, and your opponent gives you no direct answer, or evades it with a counter question, or tries to change the subject, it is a sure sign you have touched a weak spot, sometimes without knowing it. You have as it were, reduced the opponent to silence. You must, therefore, urge the point all the more, and not let your opponent evade it, even when you do not know where the weakness that you have hit upon really lies.

This trick makes all unnecessary if it works. Instead of working on an opponent's intellect, work on his or her motive. If you succeed in making your opponent's opinion, should it prove true, seem distinctly to his or her own interest, the opponenent will drop it like a hot potato.

You may also puzzle and bewilder your opponent by mere bombast. If the opponent is weak or does not wish to appear as ife he or she has no idea what you are talking about, you can easily impose upon him or her some argument that sounds very deep or learned, or that sounds indisputable.

Should your opponent be in the right but, luckily for you, choose a faulty proof, you can easily refute it and then claim that you have refuted the whole position. This is the way which bad advocates lose a good case. If no accurate proof occurs to the opponent or the bystanders, you have won the day.

A last trick is to become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand. In becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack on the person by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character. This is a very popular trick, because everyone is able to carry it into effect.
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Recommended Reading for Denizens of the Religion Group (Original Post) MineralMan Dec 2017 OP
Fox News and GOP politicians use every one of these stratagems. Nitram Dec 2017 #1
Indeed they do. MineralMan Dec 2017 #2
Win an argument, or shut down debate? guillaumeb Dec 2017 #3
Oh, I'm sure you're right, Guy. MineralMan Dec 2017 #4
A nice illustration. guillaumeb Dec 2017 #5
Irony meter assplode. AtheistCrusader Dec 2017 #6
"Atheists badz". guillaumeb Dec 2017 #7
You don't debate. That's the problem. AtheistCrusader Dec 2017 #8
Is this debate: guillaumeb Dec 2017 #9
You are now roaming from thread to thread attacking me. Voltaire2 Dec 2017 #10
Uff da, Guy! MineralMan Dec 2017 #11
It was a response to another in this thread guillaumeb Dec 2017 #12
I make no rules here. I have no authority to do so. MineralMan Dec 2017 #13
After you've continuously failed to engage and discuss issues, yeah, people get frustrated. AtheistCrusader Dec 2017 #14
A claim that I dispute. guillaumeb Dec 2017 #15
Another diversion would be your entire refusal to discuss what a verse says. AtheistCrusader Dec 2017 #16
I have actually discussed numerous specific verses this year. guillaumeb Dec 2017 #17
That is just your opinion. AtheistCrusader Dec 2017 #18
Part of the problem is categorical dismissal. guillaumeb Dec 2017 #19
That's nice, but you also accused people of literalism when they tried to examine any negative aspec AtheistCrusader Dec 2017 #20
I accused them of insisting on only a literal interpretation. guillaumeb Dec 2017 #21
He would've loved the internet. Iggo Dec 2017 #22
Of that I have no doubt. MineralMan Dec 2017 #23
I get that he's saying this is how people win arguments. Iggo Dec 2017 #24
The smart people here know when they do it. MineralMan Dec 2017 #25
Thanks for providing these 38 strategems, MM... SWBTATTReg Dec 2017 #26
Arguments and how to have them haven't changed since then. MineralMan Dec 2017 #27
really! SWBTATTReg Dec 2017 #28
I feel like you're years behind on posting this Lordquinton Dec 2017 #29

Nitram

(22,879 posts)
1. Fox News and GOP politicians use every one of these stratagems.
Wed Dec 27, 2017, 07:22 PM
Dec 2017

Trump just cuts directly to the last item because it's easier.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
3. Win an argument, or shut down debate?
Wed Dec 27, 2017, 09:07 PM
Dec 2017

Those who need the reminder will not recognize how they use these tactics in an attempt to shut down debate.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
7. "Atheists badz".
Thu Dec 28, 2017, 01:48 PM
Dec 2017

One of the most recent, totally unproven claims, to be made here against theists.

Irony, and blatant attempts at shutting down debate indeed.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
9. Is this debate:
Thu Dec 28, 2017, 10:38 PM
Dec 2017

Last edited Fri Dec 29, 2017, 12:20 AM - Edit history (1)

It seems that our theistic friends here don’t wish to have the claims they make here discussed and examined. Instead they like to waltz in to pronounce “atheists badz”
and then make some poorly thought out pontification,
and when that is questioned act astounded that on a discussion board the statements one makes might be discussed.


Since it was written, some here attempted to claim it is not the very example of what it is claimed theists at DU are doing.

I asked for any proof that this is occurring, and at this point no proof was produced. The above is not debate. What it is though, is unintentional irony.

Voltaire2

(13,162 posts)
10. You are now roaming from thread to thread attacking me.
Fri Dec 29, 2017, 10:43 AM
Dec 2017

Are you even slightly disturbed by your own behavior? By the way it more or less proves my point.

MineralMan

(146,331 posts)
11. Uff da, Guy!
Fri Dec 29, 2017, 11:52 AM
Dec 2017

Why bring that into this thread? You already have a very lengthy thread of your own featuring your claim. This thread is not about that.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
12. It was a response to another in this thread
Fri Dec 29, 2017, 12:24 PM
Dec 2017

who accused me of not debating. So I used it as an example. That is allowable, correct?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
14. After you've continuously failed to engage and discuss issues, yeah, people get frustrated.
Fri Dec 29, 2017, 12:56 PM
Dec 2017

Quelle surprise.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
15. A claim that I dispute.
Fri Dec 29, 2017, 01:02 PM
Dec 2017

But even if it were correct, would it justify mis-framing?

I have been accused of a number of things this past year, often based on a misreading of my posts. Interestingly enough, it is only a very few who seem to have an issue with my writing ability.

I have been asked numerous times to explain exactly which Bible verses I see as metaphoric. A silly demand that would take thousands of words, but the demand is made still. This is not discussion, it is diversion.

I have been called many names. Technically a violation of the TOS, but it does not bother me and I feel that the one calling the names reveals more about their own behavior than mine.

So when we speak about discussion and engagement, these are obstacles.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
16. Another diversion would be your entire refusal to discuss what a verse says.
Fri Dec 29, 2017, 01:27 PM
Dec 2017

You haven't, and you dishonestly deflect by saying we are literalists when we aren't, we're simply discussing what the entire story means. You seem to have a knack for finding the most bizarre, niche, not-common-usage metaphorical interpretation of say, exodus, or Jericho.

Our 'issue' with religion from a political standpoint is informed by the context of the US. That means, looking at something like Exodus through the lens of the dominant religions in the US, that have political affiliations. Catholics. Multiple stripes of Evangelical. Mormons. Etc.

Not some bizarre 0.004% adherence out of the population niche interpretation with only the most abstract metaphorical link.

If you want to know why people get mad at you, that's mostly it. I don't give a shit what YOU believe. You're nominally not my political foe. You're here on DU, you say you're a Democrat, fine. But stop thowing up chaff and deflection every time we talk about a religious issue in the context of the United States. It's ridiculous. NOBODY GIVES A SHIT about your 'looking for faith' interpretation of Exodus. That's not the common understanding in the US. The common understanding in western/Christian United States is exodus as a fucking Charleton Heston movie, and while it's not 100.00% literal, it's specific enough to the story as to give Egyptologists fits.

Criticism of religion in this venue isn't about YOU. Get over it.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
17. I have actually discussed numerous specific verses this year.
Fri Dec 29, 2017, 04:05 PM
Dec 2017

And when I do, often the response is "that is just your opinion". Generally this occurs because I interpret the verse metaphorically and the particular atheist insists on a literal interpretation.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
18. That is just your opinion.
Fri Dec 29, 2017, 06:17 PM
Dec 2017

And it's unhelpful because we aren't the audience that needs revision.


If you feel the exodus story is not being interpreted in its spirit TAKE IT UP WITH THE PEOPLE WHO LEAN ON THAT SHIT. Taking it up with atheists/agnostics on a democratic site is FUCKING POINTLESS.

Take it up with the legions of right-wing, religious, non-democrats that are causing problems with what you say, is a misinterpretation.

THAT is where the problem is.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
19. Part of the problem is categorical dismissal.
Fri Dec 29, 2017, 07:04 PM
Dec 2017

On either side.

And I did not actually say it was a misinterpretation, I said it was my interpretation.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
20. That's nice, but you also accused people of literalism when they tried to examine any negative aspec
Fri Dec 29, 2017, 07:16 PM
Dec 2017

t of the story that did not conform to your personal interpretation.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
21. I accused them of insisting on only a literal interpretation.
Fri Dec 29, 2017, 07:22 PM
Dec 2017

And I also said that, in my view, some atheists seem to be Biblical literalists themselves.

MineralMan

(146,331 posts)
23. Of that I have no doubt.
Sat Dec 30, 2017, 01:13 PM
Dec 2017

I've read the much longer version of this a couple of times. In it, he provides examples of all of his points. Of course, it's all a satirical account of how arguments actually go in real life. He's clearly not advocating the use of the list of logical errors and rhetorical trickery, but is recognizing it.

I first encountered his 38 strategems in a collection of rhetorical essays way back in the 1970s, and have kept a copy around ever since. The most interesting thing that occurs when I have posted the list on various online and Internet sites is that everyone accuses others of using these strategies, but nobody ever fesses up to their own use of them. I always fess up. I've used them, without even realizing it, but I try not to. Keeping them handy for ready reference helps.

Iggo

(47,565 posts)
24. I get that he's saying this is how people win arguments.
Sat Dec 30, 2017, 01:50 PM
Dec 2017

And yeah, I know I do it.

I imagine everyone on this board can see a bit of themselves in at least one of those thirty-eight.

Or maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better by saying "Everyone does it!"

MineralMan

(146,331 posts)
25. The smart people here know when they do it.
Sat Dec 30, 2017, 01:59 PM
Dec 2017

They also know when others do. Some folks, though, don't recognize their own use of those tricks. "That's funny, right there, I don't care who you are."

SWBTATTReg

(22,166 posts)
26. Thanks for providing these 38 strategems, MM...
Sat Dec 30, 2017, 02:15 PM
Dec 2017

applies to all areas besides religion...

thanks again...amazing that it was written in the 18??s, still applies in today's times...

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