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MineralMan

(146,320 posts)
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 11:26 AM Dec 2017

What Do Christians Believe?

There's no real answer to that question, which creates a problem for anyone talking about Christianity, either pro or con. Aside from the concept that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb/deity that died to redeem everyone's sins, there's not a lot of common ground among the thousands of denominations that make up global Christianity.

From attitudes regarding the nature of the Bible's accuracy to widely differing opinions about such pithy topics as abortion and LGBTQ rights, someone saying "I'm a Christian" can mean almost anything by that statement. While similar things can be said for most major religions, the differences are greater in Christianity between the disparate denominations.

Christians disagree with one another on almost every level. From which faulty translation of the Bible is best to arcane topics like predestination and transubstantiation, disagreements are manifold. If you're discussing religions with someone who identifies as a Christian, you probably have almost no idea what that person actually believes on a wide range of issues. If you ask, you'll probably learn that many don't really know or are unwilling to tell you.

So, discussions where one disagrees with some aspect of Christianity aren't necessarily just arguments between a non-believer or atheist and someone who is religious. They might be arguments that could be made by any Christian discussing Christianity with another Christian from a different denomination. Christians have been arguing with each other for a couple of millennia. It's a favorite activity among them.

For atheists, it can seem rather simple. Atheists don't believe that any deities exist, or some variation on that theme. Christians do believe they exist, almost universally. At least one and maybe three that share some identity that varies, depending on which Christian you ask. On the bottom line, there's not a lot of room for discussion between those two extremes, really. You believe or you do not believe. There is no middle ground.

For atheists, there's just that one point. For Christians, the belief point is just a perch from which to take innumerable leaps of faith. Christians don't all believe the same things. Not even close. Christianity can be really complicated for atheists, since athiests don't have any of the nuances of belief to deal with. Christians do, so discussions often stray into nuance territory, gang all agly in the process.

I am an atheist. I cannot believe in deities and other supernatural stuff. Period. I can talk about that concept just fine with anyone. I'm an evidence-based kind of guy, and will insist on evidence which does not exist in my discussion. Whoever I'm talking to does not have such evidence. As it happens, I can also talk about a number of topics that divide Christians, but they are external to the essential topic regarding belief that deities exist and affect people's lives. I can't believe that, because there's no evidence of that.

I'm interested in the differences between various flavors of Christians. They're all rather tasty and worth nibbling on, on an intellectual basis at least. But, I'm an atheist. I once thought I believed that deities might exist, but I was just a kid then. Now, I don't, and can't. Nobody will convince me otherwise with the typical tautological arguments presented in discussion. Nor, do I suppose, will I convince anyone of my position. Atheism is arrived at on an individual basis, generally after considerable thought.

So, what's the point of discussing religion at all? It's interesting. That's all. So, here I am. Carry on.



19 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Voltaire2

(13,095 posts)
1. Almost all christians believe that a man-god was walking around palestine 2000 years ago
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 11:29 AM
Dec 2017

and that this man-god was executed and then magically got resurrected and walked around a bit more and then disappeared.

MineralMan

(146,320 posts)
2. Yeah. I covered that in the OP.
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 11:31 AM
Dec 2017

First paragraph, "the concept that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb/deity that died to redeem everyone's sins"

Voltaire2

(13,095 posts)
3. that was less than specific.
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 11:33 AM
Dec 2017

"Jesus is the sacrificial lamb/deity that died to redeem everyone's sins" leaves wiggle room where people can avoid admitting that they believe utter nonsense literally happened.

MineralMan

(146,320 posts)
4. OK. It's not an academic thesis.
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 11:38 AM
Dec 2017

I don't write those things any more. No time.

There is nothing that can be written that has no "wiggle room," as you cleverly put it.

The whole "savior" thing is the one point on which Christians reliably agree, although they differ in the details of it in some cases. So, I didn't include many details.

Voltaire2

(13,095 posts)
5. So we have this ongoing debate here about what a horrible person I am
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 11:45 AM
Dec 2017

oh wait, no not that debate, the one about how if somebody points out how absurd/horrible/etc some passage in the holy texts of the abrahamic faiths is, we are being hypocritical "literalists" and that the texts in question are just "metaphors". However christians are almost all literalists with respect to the explicit events I described: "man-god walking around palestine, gets executed, gets resurrected, disappears." Get anyone of them to actually deny they believe that those specific events really happened. That goes way beyond "sacrificial lamb/savior" which is a metaphor for the specific events they believe really happened.

MineralMan

(146,320 posts)
6. See, that's the thing. That's why arguing with Christians is
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 11:52 AM
Dec 2017

an exercise in frustration. As you note, many are literalists themselves, until they are not, and the point at which they are not is variable. Trying to pin them down on such things is something like trying to add a polar bear to your collection of flying insects by pinning it to a piece of heavy paper. It's unlikely to be a success.

The whole literalists argument is a very convenient way to escape from a tight spot in an argument. "Well, you're just being a literalist on that, and I don't look at that literally." Asking what they look at literally will result in a request for some specific thing. If you supply a specific thing, they'll demur on their answer for some other reason.

Again, there is a fundamental difference. You have a simple disbelief in things supernatural. They believe in things supernatural. The gulf is too wide to cross, and nobody's going to part the waters to give you a dry path. Perhaps this will clarify:

MineralMan

(146,320 posts)
13. It is, indeed. Having lusted for an early 3-cylinder, two-stroke
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 12:24 PM
Dec 2017

SAAB at one point in my life, I have had fantasies of such a manifold. I believe in three-cylinder, two-stroke internal combustion entities.

"And thy exhaust, oily smoke withal, shall flow freely from three ports with each revolution, combining into one tubular outlet to purge thy cylinders and ready them for a new charge of fuel and air." - RingDingDing 3:1

Voltaire2

(13,095 posts)
14. My brother and I had a couple of saab 96's that we kept on the road for a while.
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 12:31 PM
Dec 2017

They were nice cars. Peculiar, but nice. Fun to drive.

MineralMan

(146,320 posts)
15. Sadly, I never found one to buy during the time I looked for one.
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 12:34 PM
Dec 2017

They weren't all that common where I lived.

Peculiar. I have always enjoyed peculiar cars.

Igel

(35,332 posts)
9. But still only "almost".
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 12:09 PM
Dec 2017

By current standards docetists would be considered Xians. (They were condemned as heretics, of course, but then again, who wasn't? Non-trinitarians were also condemned as heretics, but are now considered Xians.)

MineralMan

(146,320 posts)
11. Just being inclusive, as always.
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 12:20 PM
Dec 2017

Who am I to judge who is a heretic and who is not? If your religion includes a deific Christ of some description, then you can call yourself a Christian, as far as I'm concerned. No matter what, really. Even the Latter Day Saints are in the group. I don't want to offend that large denomination, after all. Two Seed in the Spirit Predestinarian Baptists, too. I don't care. They can sort themselves out.

Iggo

(47,561 posts)
19. Just to jump in here for a second...
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 02:02 PM
Dec 2017

You guys really are talking about the same thing.

MM's description covers the why. Yours covers the what.

And it's the what (more than the why) that upsets the xians when they're trying to defend the indefensible.

Which is why I like to focus on the what...lol.

Igel

(35,332 posts)
8. I still think there are two prototypical atheisms.
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 12:04 PM
Dec 2017

It's obfuscated by the peculiarities of English grammar and negative-raising (using the Chomskian term).

My BIL current does not believe there is a god. It's no big deal to him. When his mother says she believes, it doesn't cut across something he actively believes. It's different from his belief, but doesn't deny his belief. Using pseudo formal terms, it comes out as [not {believe (exists <god&gt }] versus {believe (exists <god&gt }.

Believe is a two-place predicate, subject of some sort + a proposition. Exists is just an operator. It's the believing that isn't there.

There are alternative placements of the negation.

[not {believe (exists <god&gt }] denies that one believes that there is a god.
[believe {not (exists <god&gt }] would be stating that one believes that god doesn't exist. It the formal logic I learned there were few differences between that and
[believe (exists <no god&gt ] . The denial that something exists and the affirmation that the thing is absent usually are a tautology.

My BIL for years believed there is no god. That comes out as denial not of belief in god, but belief that, in fact, there is no god. To object to this is to deny the object of a belief and to say that he's believing in something false.

It's the difference between somebody asking me if I'm Muslim and my saying, "No" versus saying "I think Muhammed was a Christian heretic." One's a denial of one's own belief; the other's the assertion of a belief and denial of the object of another's belief.

It may seem like a trivial point of little consequence, but to be honest, denying the trinity is of no greater practical import. It's like somebody who believes the Sun revolves around the Earth ... Really, if you're flipping burgers, doing brain surgery, drilling for oil, or programming Skynet, it really doesn't matter.

MineralMan

(146,320 posts)
12. I'm not going to go there. Not a chance.
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 12:22 PM
Dec 2017

I can say what I think. I do not and cannot believe that any supernatural entities or phenomena exist. I am a disbeliever in such things. I am an atheist.

I will leave it to other atheists to describe their non-belief.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
16. Is there a difference between...
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 01:34 PM
Dec 2017

"I do not and cannot believe" - and "I have not ever encountered nor do I ever expect to encounter any supernatural entities or phenomena?"

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
17. And that's not an exhaustive list by any stretch
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 01:42 PM
Dec 2017

It's entirely possible to have a general disbelief while also having reached a specific conclusion that an individual god or pantheon is false. Personally, I doubt very much that there's anything we would recognize as divine, but acknowledge the very slim possibility. The Abrahamic monster, OTOH, is one of several I'm quite certain doesn't exist.

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