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MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 02:53 PM Apr 2018

On the Subject of Free Will

I just finished a major website content project about internet marketing from a neuroscience perspective. Among the resources I used to research that subject was a book by Daniel Kahneman, a 2002 Nobel Prize laureate in Economics and a Psychology Professor at Princeton. The book, Thinking, Fast and Slow, describes the research used and the conclusions drawn that led to the Nobel honors. I highly recommend it if the subject interests you. There's a reason it was a NYT Best Seller.

The research involved human decision-making, which turns out to be very important when it comes to marketing. Using fMRI scanning technology, along with other techniques, the research looked at what parts of the brain were involved in actual decision making during those scans. Long story short, Kahneman concludes that decisions are made by two broadly-defined systems of the brain.

System I, as he names it, is associated with activity in the limbic system, the more primitive parts of the brain that evolved relatively early in mammalian evolution. Decisions made by System I are intuitive, fast, and involve primal issues, deeply ingrained memories, and conditioned responses, primarily. Such decisions are essentially unconscious choices, for the most part. System I decisions make up the vast majority of the tens of thousands of decisions humans make daily. Due to the rapid response, many of those decisions are not in the best interests of the individual making them, and mistakes are frequent. But, System I is quite dominant and actually ends up deciding most things.

System II, on the other hand, involves the cerebral cortex, and is activated when System I is unable to decide quickly. System II operates more slowly, and involves calculations, searches for additional information, logical processes and other more complex thinking before a decision is actually made. In fMRI scans, the researchers could watch as different areas of the brain became active during both System I and System II activity. System II comes into play when making choices has longer term effects, or when fast System I decisions are not appropriate for the situation. Important decisions, in other words.

Interestingly enough, System I often takes over after activity in System II, making the final choice. An example would be a person carefully investigating the purchase of a new car. After looking at available and desirable models, checking reviews, comparing prices and features, what often happens at the dealership is that the final choice ends up being made based on color, comfort or some unique feature that appeals to the customer only when in the actual presence of the vehicle. While the research and thought informs the decision to some degree, the final choice ends up being made by the more primal, immediate response of System I.

All of this is very interesting, and the book, along with three or four others I used in my research for the project, was very useful to me. Marketing is all about choices people make. Neuromarketing, or Consumer Neuroscience as it is euphemistically called, is all about using that knowledge to successfully sell junk and services to unsuspecting consumers.

However, it has implications in the area of Free Will. Based on my reading, we do, indeed, have free will in our decisions. We can, and do, make decisions based on significant calculations, information-gathering, logical reasoning and other factors. We can, and do, make decisions that affect our lives over the long term. However, at any time, we may also make even crucial decisions based on a sudden desire, fear, or need, with the primal part of our brain leading us to unconscious choices we may not fully understand.

There's a song from back in 1967 that sort of brings it all into focus for me. You may recognize it. It's all about evolution. We're the smartest land mammal. We can make decisions for ourselves and we do. But, earlier-evolved parts of our brain may end up taking over and fooling us. There's free will, if we are determined to use it, but we can also just let our squirrel brains do the deciding. It's our choice, really.

14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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On the Subject of Free Will (Original Post) MineralMan Apr 2018 OP
Bingo. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2018 #1
In the sense that we are bounded by our humanness, MineralMan Apr 2018 #2
Interesting. Your conclusion is wrong, of course, but interesting just the same. Binkie The Clown Apr 2018 #3
Mess away! MineralMan Apr 2018 #4
So things happen in our mind that have no cause? Binkie The Clown Apr 2018 #6
Yes. I believe so. MineralMan Apr 2018 #8
"When I felt I had learned enough, I made a fast transition to the new thing." Binkie The Clown Apr 2018 #10
The best part is that we'll never really know. MineralMan Apr 2018 #11
Mostly your system II just makes up Voltaire2 Apr 2018 #7
That's true, at least most of the time. MineralMan Apr 2018 #9
There is no libertarian free will. enki23 Apr 2018 #5
If we are a product of our environment, guillaumeb Apr 2018 #12
We are partly influenced by that, MineralMan Apr 2018 #13
Libertarianism is inherited brain chemical condition Old Enough 2 Apr 2018 #14

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
1. Bingo.
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 03:38 PM
Apr 2018

However, it has implications in the area of Free Will. Based on my reading, we do, indeed, have free will in our decisions. We can, and do, make decisions based on significant calculations, information-gathering, logical reasoning and other factors. We can, and do, make decisions that affect our lives over the long term. However, at any time, we may also make even crucial decisions based on a sudden desire, fear, or need, with the primal part of our brain leading us to unconscious choices we may not fully understand


Absolutely dead on. Not all situations requiring a decision trigger the same neuro-biological processes. The act of deciding which car to buy is decidedly different, biologically, from seeing a car stopped a short distance in front of you and deciding to hit the brakes.

But even the decisions made after careful deliberation are in some way shaped by genetics, epigenetics, and socialization. I wouldn't describe them as being totally free.

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
2. In the sense that we are bounded by our humanness,
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 03:47 PM
Apr 2018

I agree. But, within those boundaries, we are able to make both excellent and disastrous decisions. We do enjoy free will within those boundaries, because we are our own boundaries.

On the car buying question, when I bought my last new car, I did a lot of research and decided on a brand, model and trim level. I called a local dealer for the car I decided on. They said they had one. It was a base level model with a manual transmission, as I had decided to buy. My wife and I drove up there after making an appointment. The car was parked near the entrance of the showroom. It was black. I dislike black cars. However, it was precisely the car I wanted, and at the price I wanted to pay. The salesperson asked if I wanted to test drive it. I said, "It's brand new, isn't it? It has a warranty, right?" We went inside and did the deal. An hour later, we drove it off the lot and still have it. I still dislike black cars, but am quite fond of the car we bought. It was a pure System II decision. It was a good choice.

On the other hand, there's my first wife...a System I decision that was not in my best interests, I discovered. And so it goes.

Binkie The Clown

(7,911 posts)
3. Interesting. Your conclusion is wrong, of course, but interesting just the same.
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 03:49 PM
Apr 2018


Bear with me here:

Two decision-making algorithms; one rapid, and possibly with some randomness, and another slower, but deterministic. A third algorithm chooses, deterministically, which algorithm to employ.

What you haven't shown is that any of these three processes is non-deterministic or non-random. If deterministic, then no free will exists. If random, then no free will exists.

And what is free will to begin with? The ability to factor in (deterministically) one's preferences or emotions surrounding a choice? Free will is flat out impossible. To believe otherwise is to believe in a non-causal world; a world where some effects have no cause at all, but occur only because some transcendental thing called "free will" reaches down from some realm beyond the physical to influence the physical world. The belief in free will amounts to magical thinking and a disavowal of the bedrock principle of science: cause and effect.

So to believe in free will is to believe that something about consciousness transcends, and is apart from the physical world. And if that's the case, then ... https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218278870

( Disclaimer: I do believe in free will, but I also believe in all that free will implies. It's a package deal. Take it all, or leave it all. )

(just messing with you)

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
4. Mess away!
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 03:55 PM
Apr 2018

There are definitely limitations in our will and how free we are. No question. Every decision, no matter how well-calculated, will be affected by myriad things that we do not control. However, within the substrate that is our humanity, with all the limitations that implies, we do have freedom to decide all sorts of things. We don't do such a great job with many of those decisions, but we are free to make them. We are not without limits, though, certainly.

Binkie The Clown

(7,911 posts)
6. So things happen in our mind that have no cause?
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 04:08 PM
Apr 2018

Because if they have a cause they are deterministic, not free, and if they have no cause they are random.

I'm not saying free will does not exist. I'm saying free will cannot be justified within the materialistic world view. To admit of free will is to admit of something that transcends the strictly materialist world view.

Personally, I have no problem with that. But I do have to accept that the strictly materialistic world view is inadequate to the task of explaining, or even justifying free will.

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
8. Yes. I believe so.
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 07:54 PM
Apr 2018

I have drastically changed what I do for a living many times...on average, every eight years. Each time, it has been something I had previously not done, even as a hobby. Why? Because I wanted a challenge. I would pick something out of the blue, and then teach myself the necessary skills and knowledge, while continuing the work I was already doing.

When I felt I had learned enough, I made a fast transition to the new thing. It was a risky thing to do. But, the challenge was the goal. Some things worked out better than others. I have not had a W-2 job since 1974. My choice. My decision.

It has been a fun, if precarious, way of life. Each change was almost a whim. The whim became the next challenge. All came from my own mind.

Binkie The Clown

(7,911 posts)
10. "When I felt I had learned enough, I made a fast transition to the new thing."
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 08:15 PM
Apr 2018

Cause: Feeling you had learned enough.
Effect: Make transition.

Cause and effect. Deterministic. No free will.

"Each change was almost a whim."

"whim" implies random.
"Almost a whim" implies pseudo random. "Pseudo random" is, by definition, deterministic.
"Whim" might also be taken to mean effects for which the causes are hidden in the subconscious. But, that the causes are hidden does not mean that those causes did not exist.

Random implies no free will.
Deterministic implies no free will.

The ONLY axiom that allows for free will to exist is the axiom that not every effect has a cause. That denies the cornerstone of science: "cause and effect". Without strict cause and effect the foundations of science crumble.

Therefore, either "free will" OR "science", but not both.

Personally, I opt for "free will" admitting that this implies that there is more to reality than science can explain. Case in point, science is built on cause and effect. If free will is causeless then science is not the right tool examine it. I.e. free will is something that science cannot explain.

So if someone tells me, for example, "life after death is impossible because science." I can answer "science is incomplete because free will." And if science is incomplete then chanting "science" to refute a claim is no better than chanting "bible" to refute a claim.

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
11. The best part is that we'll never really know.
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 08:23 PM
Apr 2018

For me, the journey is also the goal. When I arrive at the destination, it's time to start a new journey. What triggers that? It could be almost anything. The free will part is the decision to take the journey. We encounter many stimuli. Most, we ignore. Some become the beginning of a journey. That requires a conscious decision.

Voltaire2

(13,037 posts)
7. Mostly your system II just makes up
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 04:53 PM
Apr 2018

narratives to explain what system I just did. It is more complicated, and there is feedback from II to I that changes how I behaves over time, but “free will” in the classic sense is an illusion.

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
9. That's true, at least most of the time.
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 08:14 PM
Apr 2018

But not always, I think. The project I just finished has as its goal improving success for businesses with websites. Since I work with a web designer who can't write himself out of a corner, we're working on attracting new clients. He happens to be a PhD neuroscientist, and is an SEO whiz, for real.

So this project is marketing his knowledge and my content skills in a slightly different way. I had some knowledge of marketing research from earlier study in that area, so I just had to update that to reflect current research. We'll see how this new site works.

New stuff is fun stuff...

enki23

(7,788 posts)
5. There is no libertarian free will.
Wed Apr 11, 2018, 04:02 PM
Apr 2018

You stop at a deterministic, or random causal agent, or collection of them, or you have an infinite regress. No other options exist. Unless you're happy to wave your hands and say "infinite regress, yes, and infinite regress has free will," then there is no libertarian free will. Of course, saying it doesn't make it so. The only evidence on the other side is our intuition of it.

So, practically, we redefine "free will" as "relatively sound mind; no external coercion" and have done with it. We call ourselves "compatiblists" if we're fully satisfied with the redefinition. We just say "there is no free will" if we aren't. We're determinists either way, even if the determining causes contain some random components. So, in the end, there's determinism, and there's hand-waving bullshitters claiming to believe in a thing they can't even define.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
12. If we are a product of our environment,
Thu Apr 12, 2018, 12:04 PM
Apr 2018

and that includes our socialization, education, and every situation where learning takes place, our decisions are influenced by our life experiences.

Old Enough 2

(90 posts)
14. Libertarianism is inherited brain chemical condition
Fri Apr 20, 2018, 05:59 PM
Apr 2018

Environment shapes us to a great extent but never overlook the inherited genes that create the greed and self interest found in libertarians. Some individuals are by nature bound to believe the libertarian BS. Works if you're very rich ( the Mercers) but is idiotic if your Joe the Plumber.
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