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guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
Tue Jun 19, 2018, 07:44 PM Jun 2018

What is "a certain belief"?

I read the following in a post recently:

So, there it is. Belief in the "divine" is a belief in the existence of deities. Atheism is the disbelief in deities
or the certain belief that no deities exist. The two things are incompatible, by definition.





https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218287061

So the question is, what is meant in this instance by the phrase "a certain belief"?


My view is that the author meant that this certain belief is a strong belief, meaning that the author strongly believes that this particular belief is correct. And in this post, that certain belief refers to atheism.


What proof does the author present for this certain belief? None, because as a belief, it requires no proof. Belief exists in the absence of any proof.

But in each case, and in each definition of atheism, the author defines atheism as a belief. The difference is that the first is expressed as a negative, and the second is expressed positively.

Thoughts?
91 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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What is "a certain belief"? (Original Post) guillaumeb Jun 2018 OP
Similar to the "sure and certain hope" referred to MineralMan Jun 2018 #1
2 of 40 Major Nikon Jun 2018 #3
Teehee... MineralMan Jun 2018 #4
What are the chances that meaningful discussion will ensue? Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #6
Some 'certain' people in here get to "talk amongst yourselves. Discuss..." sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #12
I am this much 📈 certain that in an Eastern Orthodox sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #11
That covers less than 1% of the Christian population in the US Major Nikon Jun 2018 #15
Gee, thanks for the resounding. 😐 sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #17
I suppose I could have wrote... Major Nikon Jun 2018 #18
All them big words smushed my brain. sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #38
Yep...you're a believer then... n/t Fix The Stupid Jun 2018 #43
I refrain from replying inna wise acre truck driver manner. sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #44
I'll try to use words with less than 3 syllables next time Major Nikon Jun 2018 #46
You are so kind. sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #47
Well, gil has his fan club. trotsky Jun 2018 #19
Maybe he has a little crush on me... MineralMan Jun 2018 #21
The dude cares so much about you, he literally tallies up the number of posts you make. trotsky Jun 2018 #30
Yes, I think about the attention he's paying to me all the time. MineralMan Jun 2018 #31
Is he hurting you? You don't need to suffer alone. marylandblue Jun 2018 #33
1-800-ATHEIST? MineralMan Jun 2018 #34
You can't prove there's no proof Major Nikon Jun 2018 #2
Got 'eem!!! n/t trotsky Jun 2018 #20
Are you able to prove there's no proof. So, all these tons of peoples who 'believe' are schnookered, sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #41
I feel no obligation to disprove that which never offered proof to begin with Major Nikon Jun 2018 #42
I'm outta gas. You people make a body weary. sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #45
As has been explained here many times there Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #5
The 2nd is a subset of the 1st Major Nikon Jun 2018 #7
Good point. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #8
As the imaginary fan club roars Major Nikon Jun 2018 #9
Rrrrr! I Am Woman. sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #10
Except for those few atheists who do believe. guillaumeb Jun 2018 #26
Logic isn't your strong suit Major Nikon Jun 2018 #28
You really must keep up on the various threads. guillaumeb Jun 2018 #48
Name one Major Nikon Jun 2018 #51
I posted about it recently. guillaumeb Jun 2018 #53
If you can't name one I'm simply going to assume a backlog of merde Major Nikon Jun 2018 #54
Having once again driven his op straight into a wall Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #60
Are you people in here older younger in-between or what's the deal?🤔 sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #13
I think you covered all the possibilities there. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #22
😁 sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #39
I yam not a technical person per se. sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #40
Two positions? MineralMan Jun 2018 #32
Can an atheist believe in the missionary position? marylandblue Jun 2018 #35
Well, if one remembers that it was Christian missionaries MineralMan Jun 2018 #36
We'll see we got both types...country and western Docreed2003 Jun 2018 #79
Faith exists in the absence of proof, belief may or may not. marylandblue Jun 2018 #14
A belief may or may not be based on evidence and reason Major Nikon Jun 2018 #16
Oh and "off" is not a tv channel. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #23
Well that explains why their shows are so boring marylandblue Jun 2018 #24
I. Just. Got. This. 😆 sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #81
You may be the only one who thought it was funny. marylandblue Jun 2018 #83
Well, it did take me a tad for the lightbulb to light up. sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #85
Once again you take a simple concept and fail miserably in the interpretation Major Nikon Jun 2018 #25
So you disagree with MM? guillaumeb Jun 2018 #27
No Major Nikon Jun 2018 #29
Like this response from you? guillaumeb Jun 2018 #49
No Major Nikon Jun 2018 #52
That sentence uses the word "or" in the exclusionary sense. MineralMan Jun 2018 #37
You are apparently arguing with your own words. guillaumeb Jun 2018 #50
It's a two part definition. Each part stands alone. marylandblue Jun 2018 #55
Because it directly contradicts what many atheists have already claimed. guillaumeb Jun 2018 #56
Most atheists on this site are soft atheists marylandblue Jun 2018 #57
So first you falsely claimed MM contradicted himself Major Nikon Jun 2018 #58
Nope. You failed to understand the plain English words. MineralMan Jun 2018 #65
MineralMan, these concepts can be very confusing. Mariana Jun 2018 #62
Perfectly Brilliant! MineralMan Jun 2018 #64
It's actually pretty simple once you realize non-belief is really belief Major Nikon Jun 2018 #67
🙃 sprinkleeninow Jun 2018 #80
I certainly believe this is yet another faithiest train wreck Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #59
Faithed another one up till hell won't have it Major Nikon Jun 2018 #61
Why do you think he abandoned it already? trotsky Jun 2018 #63
You can't prove that. Act_of_Reparation Jun 2018 #66
I have a certain belief that if I hit "post my reply" Eko Jun 2018 #68
Proof. Eko Jun 2018 #69
Proof again. Eko Jun 2018 #70
I could keep going. Eko Jun 2018 #71
Lets go for 10 out of 10. Eko Jun 2018 #72
6. Proof. Eko Jun 2018 #73
7 proof. Eko Jun 2018 #74
8 proof. Eko Jun 2018 #75
9 proof. Eko Jun 2018 #76
10 proof. Eko Jun 2018 #77
This is an inductive proof. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #82
I have a certain belief that gil has abandoned this failed thread, trotsky Jun 2018 #84
You are so very predictable. guillaumeb Jun 2018 #86
Irony is funny. MineralMan Jun 2018 #87
Coming from you, that is a good one. eom guillaumeb Jun 2018 #88
Thanks! MineralMan Jun 2018 #89
I feel like I'm on a playground Lordquinton Jun 2018 #90
Guilty as charged. trotsky Jun 2018 #91
Hmmm. Snackshack Jun 2018 #78

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
1. Similar to the "sure and certain hope" referred to
Tue Jun 19, 2018, 07:56 PM
Jun 2018

constantly at Christian funerals.

You seem oddly fascinated with one word in my post. This is the second thread you have started about that post of mine. Perhaps a new hobby would be appropriate.

Voltaire2

(13,061 posts)
6. What are the chances that meaningful discussion will ensue?
Tue Jun 19, 2018, 09:05 PM
Jun 2018

My guess is slim to none. Once again this poster thinks he has some Major Gotcha.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
12. Some 'certain' people in here get to "talk amongst yourselves. Discuss..."
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 12:28 AM
Jun 2018

Thank you Linda Richman/Mike Myers.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
11. I am this much 📈 certain that in an Eastern Orthodox
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 12:22 AM
Jun 2018

funeral service for the newly departed those/that words/phrase are/is not spoken.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
18. I suppose I could have wrote...
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 04:29 AM
Jun 2018

Gee, thanks for the perspective of the 1%, had I wanted to be equally dismissively sarcastic.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
44. I refrain from replying inna wise acre truck driver manner.
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 03:38 PM
Jun 2018

'Honk! Honk!
Move your crate, bub!
Hey lady, get outta the way!"

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
30. The dude cares so much about you, he literally tallies up the number of posts you make.
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 11:51 AM
Jun 2018

I'd say it's cute, but perhaps it's bordering on unhealthy obsession.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
31. Yes, I think about the attention he's paying to me all the time.
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 01:01 PM
Jun 2018

However, I decided a bit ago to engage with him only infrequently here. I'm hoping that will ease down his interest without causing too much pain. I don't think he's my type, really, anyhow.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
33. Is he hurting you? You don't need to suffer alone.
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 01:15 PM
Jun 2018

Please go to the nearest abused atheists shelter. They have counselors available 24/7. We can even get a restraining order from the Heavenly Court.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
34. 1-800-ATHEIST?
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 01:24 PM
Jun 2018

Is that still the number?

No, I'm in no danger, I'm sure. I have a CERTAIN BELIEF about that.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
41. Are you able to prove there's no proof. So, all these tons of peoples who 'believe' are schnookered,
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 02:17 PM
Jun 2018

hoodwinked, bamboozled.

Oh my DOG, my head.

Voltaire2

(13,061 posts)
5. As has been explained here many times there
Tue Jun 19, 2018, 09:02 PM
Jun 2018

are two basic positions for atheism:

1) absence of belief in the existence of any gods.
2) belief that no gods exist.

The first position has been characterized as “soft atheism”, the second as “hard atheism”.

The difference can also be expressed as agnostic atheism vs gnostic atheism.

Certain belief that there are no gods is indeed unprovable, just as I cannot prove there are no Santa Clauses, Easter Bunnies, or Unicorns. In my experience most atheist are soft or agnostic atheists.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
7. The 2nd is a subset of the 1st
Tue Jun 19, 2018, 09:15 PM
Jun 2018

All atheists reject belief in deities. Some just take it one step farther.

What’s telling is the false equivocators want to focus on the subset and pretend the overlying qualifier doesn’t exist.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
10. Rrrrr! I Am Woman.
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 12:13 AM
Jun 2018

Hi Guillaume,
Un vrai sage sage!
Je suis captivé par toi.
Bonne Bon-Bon
💙🇺🇸🌊
imposters outta the people's house!

Voltaire2

(13,061 posts)
60. Having once again driven his op straight into a wall
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 09:57 PM
Jun 2018

the poster attempts a diversion by referencing one of his prior disasters.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
40. I yam not a technical person per se.
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 02:04 PM
Jun 2018

I do like order in arranging stuff and unfortunately, bc professing I am of the Christian Way, I have a tendency toward perfectionism in a lot. Which is to say I put a lot of performance on MYSELF, not others.

'We' Christians should only strive in 'excellence' when doing or performing anything for Him, in His Name and in His Spirit. We are asked to do these as being done unto Him. Even menial things like mopping the floor, doing laundry or cleaning yucky stuff.

Why'd I even say that.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
36. Well, if one remembers that it was Christian missionaries
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 01:34 PM
Jun 2018

who introduced that position for intercourse to some indigenous peoples and insisted that it was the only righteous way to boink, I just consider it to be an adjective with a historical meaning. I won't discuss my own use of it, however, which has always been minimal.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
14. Faith exists in the absence of proof, belief may or may not.
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 12:58 AM
Jun 2018

I believe the earth is round. I am certain of it. I can prove it too.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
81. I. Just. Got. This. 😆
Fri Jun 22, 2018, 01:03 AM
Jun 2018

As is quipped on the internet tubes, "saw what you did there". 😊

Somebody that resides with me just rolled in from MD earlier.

When I'm able to divulge, I may. 🦀🦐

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
25. Once again you take a simple concept and fail miserably in the interpretation
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 10:25 AM
Jun 2018
Non-belief isn't a belief. Pretending it is doesn't make it so. It just makes one look foolish for asserting an obvious fallacy.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
29. No
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 11:02 AM
Jun 2018

I read your post, but canned responses are always appreciated as they demonstrate your intellectual laziness.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
37. That sentence uses the word "or" in the exclusionary sense.
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 01:39 PM
Jun 2018

It always did. One may order either a salad or fries with that particular menu item. I have stated very clearly that I disbelieve the existence of deities. I do not believe they exist.

I do not say that I believe deities do not exist. The position of the word determines its meaning. "or" is like that. In my sentence it is an exclusionary word. Had I wanted an inclusionary word, I would have written "and."

How many times will I have to explain that to you>

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
50. You are apparently arguing with your own words.
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 08:05 PM
Jun 2018

Specifically:

So, there it is. Belief in the "divine" is a belief in the existence of deities. Atheism is the disbelief in deities
or the certain belief that no deities exist. The two things are incompatible, by definition.


Let us all know who wins that argument.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
57. Most atheists on this site are soft atheists
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 08:36 PM
Jun 2018

And have defended that position. But the definition acknowledges the existence of hard atheists. Those are the ones with "certain belief." The atheists on this site, including MM, do not take that position. So where is the contradiction?

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
58. So first you falsely claimed MM contradicted himself
Wed Jun 20, 2018, 08:52 PM
Jun 2018

Now you claim he’s contradicted by other unidentified forum members.

When you get your merde all in one sock, do let us know.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
65. Nope. You failed to understand the plain English words.
Thu Jun 21, 2018, 09:49 AM
Jun 2018

Last edited Thu Jun 21, 2018, 11:24 AM - Edit history (1)

Bye, now...at least until you call me out again as you have done in this thread. You know, of course, that callouts are frowned upon in discussion forums. Please don't continue to be rude. I will see them.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
67. It's actually pretty simple once you realize non-belief is really belief
Thu Jun 21, 2018, 10:54 AM
Jun 2018

...and unbelievers are actually believers.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
63. Why do you think he abandoned it already?
Thu Jun 21, 2018, 08:37 AM
Jun 2018

Gotta admire the guy's persistence if nothing else. And given his consistent behavior, there might actually be nothing else.

Voltaire2

(13,061 posts)
82. This is an inductive proof.
Fri Jun 22, 2018, 05:37 AM
Jun 2018

There is no certainty that it will work the same next time. So inductive reasoning leads to belief but not certain belief.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
84. I have a certain belief that gil has abandoned this failed thread,
Fri Jun 22, 2018, 09:46 AM
Jun 2018

just like he abandons ALL his failed threads where he thought he FINALLY found something to make atheists shut up (his life-long dream).

Rather than stay and engage in dialog and LEARN about what atheists actually think (or believe!!), he runs away to start a new thread when the laughter at his latest humiliation fades away.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
86. You are so very predictable.
Sun Jun 24, 2018, 05:14 PM
Jun 2018

The name calling, the avoidance of any real dialogue, and the fact that this has been your demonstrated pattern for years.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
90. I feel like I'm on a playground
Sun Jun 24, 2018, 09:37 PM
Jun 2018

The "no u!" Replies, "I'm rubber you're glue" "I'm not hitting you!"

Did I leave any out?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
91. Guilty as charged.
Mon Jun 25, 2018, 08:28 AM
Jun 2018

You can successfully predict that I will call you on your bullshit 100% of the time, yup!

Speaking of name calling, might want to remove that plank from your eye before you criticize the motes in others.

Snackshack

(2,541 posts)
78. Hmmm.
Thu Jun 21, 2018, 10:16 PM
Jun 2018

In the context provided above “Certain belief” is an Oxymoron.

The use of “Certain” implies an absolute known.

“Belief” implies a lack of an absolute known.

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