There is a shortage of priests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_shortage_in_the_Catholic_Church#Europe), and if the church were to embark on a crackdown on pedophile priests, it would exacerbate the shortage.

it is that the terrible crimes were covered up by the RCC hierarchy.

but it is particularly shocking coming from religious institutions and/or those catering to children.

And cover ups are uncovered in many institutions.

Penn State, Michigan State.

but doing so avoids the fact that these religious institutions are composed of the same type of imperfect humans who belong to every other group.

before one is allowed to transubstantiate the bread and wine. But apparently not. The priest is just playing dress-up before a congregation who only THINKS he has some divine power in him, some moral fiber at least slightly stronger than their own. But, no he does not, he has nothing, no special connection, it's all just a fantasy game fit only for children. If that it is the best defense that can be mustered for this decidely unholy game, then let only children be priests and let the men sit back down in the pews to watch the children play.

That vetting, in the form of background checks and psychological testing might be excellent ideas.

after a select committee of appropriate officials has contemplated what ought to be done.

That was an assumption that it was always part of being a priest. That it isn't like my first job as busboy where I just walked in and asked if they needed any help. But apparently it is like that.

What percent of institutions utilized background checks 50 years ago?

It's about all the talk of holy orders and consecration and spiritual guidance and His Holiness the Vicar of Christ on Earth leading and protecting the little human sheep. Maybe those of us went to college in the 20th or 21st century know those are just "metaphors." But most of the flock didn't seem to know that it's just an ordinary man in that getup and there's a 5% chance he is literally buggering an altar boy. Chances of metaphorical buggery are considerably higher than that.

They claim to hold themselves to a higher standard, don't they?

I'm not that comfortable with the 'divergence' in this circumstance.

Becoming a priest isn't just an "intention", it's a commitment and a serious responsibility, especially insofar as it impacts children.

Last edited Fri Sep 7, 2018, 09:29 AM - Edit history (1)

Guaranteed lifetime employment, great Boss, easy work, good health and retirement benefits, respect in the community, and you don't even have to keep your vows. You do have to work Sundays, but you can take it easy the rest of the week.

the priest shortage is only one reason. There are many reasons why the church is hiding the problem.

I suspect the abuse has been going on a lot longer than the priest shortage, most certainly going back decades, and perhaps centuries.

sexual predation has existed.

That was going on in the Catholic Church long before there was any shortage of priests.

She was replying to a different poster, not you. It is not all about you in the Religion Group, guillaumeb, despite your belief that it is.

You are incorrect.

asking him to continue doing what he is doing, and praising his efforts in this group. I suppose all that attention (real or imagined) might contribute to his belief that it is all about him in the Religion group.

But in my view, Canon Law must be changed, as well as an institutional culture that allows for a cover up. All of the responses, from moving offenders to denying that a problem even exists, are typical behavior for many institutions, but as to how to change such behavior, I have no solutions.


It seems that we cannot change predators, so how do we teach people that institutional and group solidarity cannot be a reason to cover for criminal behavior?

It's the reason they shuffle around and hide their assets when a lawsuit does come to fruition, so if they lose, they can plead poverty. Also, if they're successful in hiding them it makes them seem like they're still a moral agency that deserves your money to continue their work.

TlalocW

Not an excuse, there are no excuses. But their decision to cover up the abuses is causing them to pay enormous sums to settle cases.

The cover up was/is ethically and financially terrible.

and the fear of losing both.

Agree... money and power corrupts.. If you have a good marketing plan that rakes in millions of dollars, why mess it up with admitting wrong doing?? Any $$$ they spend to keep things quiet is just the cost of doing business...
m

The very nature of those systems contributes to abuse by those with nefarious intent. Transparency and accountability outside of those systems is needed.

And perhaps, as another here suggested, a Vatican III Council is required.

But high ranking members of hierarchies resist losing their power.

rank and file. After all, they reason, they are on the inside and know details that regulars don't know.

I don't have the answers to this human failing.

And yes, as you pointed out, many members of various hierarchies in every institution do feel special.

And most sexual predators are male.

I mean if someone continuously makes excuses for the RCC's child rape problem, aren't they in "fact" part of the problem?

Perhaps that needs some more research. None of the examples you gave address it.

is complicit. And that includes the major place where abuse is found. In the family.

And I did state that, in my view, the cover up is even worse.

And should be tried as such?

who's main representative on earth is the head of the RCC?
If so, has this God sat by while this institution enabled child rape?
If not, why is this institution given any moral authority or deference in any matter?

As to the Creator's thoughts on this matter, I only know that Jesus gave to Peter the position of the head of the church.

Here, I'll put it in other words:

Does the Pope not answer to the deity he represents? Does that deity not pay attention?

edhopper asked me to answer for the Creator.

a belief you hold.

So why does God allow the head of his Church to enable child rapists?

to not be raped? Or is the free will of the rapist Priest more important to God than that of the children.

I also wonder if you agree that some people (like pedophiles) are mentally compelled to deviant behavior?

If so, where is the free will if it is mental illness?

And why do God's emissaries on Earth use their free will to protect the rapists?

If they do God's work, than God wants the rapists protected.

If they don't then what is the purpose of the RCC?

From my reading, it does seem as if pedophiles are serial offenders. Again, my reading reveals that many pedophiles were abused as children, but many is not all.

As to the why of the cover up, I asked and attempted to answer that here.

The purpose of the RCC, as far as I remember, is to act as an organization that works to fulfill the Creator's wishes.

wishes them to enable child rapist?

And the Creator ismfine with that?

My guess, in the first instance, is that they place institutional protection above all else.

Doesn't sound like an organization that deserves to exist anymore.

Do you think they do?

The cover up reflects on the individuals doing the cover up.

does get a pass.

It's just individuals within.

Thanks for showing us where you stand.

And the individuals who were in the RCC 2,000 years ago are long dead, but human behavior seems to be quite consistent.

Would you suggest that because there are many cases of sexual predation of children in schools that schools should be eliminated?

Would you suggest that because most cases of sexual predation of children occur in the family that families should be eliminated?

that enables child rape should be disbanded.

any family that enables child rape should be disbanded

any religious organization that enable child rape should be disbanded.

do you think such schools, families and churches should go on unscathed.

sounds like that is what you are advocating.

And their deaths serve as examples for future leaders to avoid the mistakes of their predecessors. So disbanding an entire institution is not as strange or ineffective as.you make it sound. Though, that will never happen to the RCC as long as people show up every Sunday. Which maybe someday they won't.

the RCC can do no wrong, it believes. So, when its minions offend common decency, the organization sweeps such offences under its many rugs.

There is a difference between a religion that is the largest denomination of Christianity and the other groups you name. The RCC operates under the principle that it is doing God's work. It demands that it be trusted and treated with worshipful respect. That allows its workers to gain the trust of victims.

Comparing the Roman Catholic Church with secular organization ignores the RCC's insistence that it is acting in God's name.

There is no equivalency.

This is simply more whataboutism.

Religious leaders in general claim moral superiority, and people give deference to that claim. The defense that a religious institution is no worse than any other is no defense at all.

It's like arguing it's okay for a soldier to be AWOL because civilians also quit their jobs. Or it's okay for the President to hire his son-in-law because that's a normal arrangement in private business. We expect more from certain people than others. This too is universally human.

but is it logical to expect that from imperfect humans?

What is generally ignored in this forum, as some have ignored already here, is that covering up for criminal behavior is found in many institutions. It seems to be a human tendency, and expecting humans to not behave as humans is ridiculous.

Do you expect your doctor to smoke? What about your garbage collector? Do you expect teachers to protect children from Boko Haram, or the other way around? Do you say, "Saudi Arabia uses capital punishment, therefore I expect Sweden to use it too?"

Expecting the same thing of all humans and all human institutions is not itself a human trait. I am not actually aware of anyone who consistently argues in that manner. Except you. Which I've learned to expect.

And sexual predation is one.
As are cover ups by fellow members of an institution.

Using your examples, would you expect that no doctor smokes?
Would you expect that sexual abuse is unknown in the teaching profession?

Do you expect YOUR doctor to smoke? [emphasis added] It's a yes or no question that deserves a yes or no answer. I suspect you won't answer because the answer is obviously "no," but that answer would not allow you to maintain the myth of moral equivalence.

Do you expect that all doctors do not smoke, or are you aware that doctors, like everyone else, are not perfect?

Again, I never expect perfection. And as much as I find sexual predation to be horrible behavior, I am not surprised to find that it happens. And I am not surprised to find cover ups.

I expect my doctors not to smoke. I believe it disqualifies them as doctors, no matter what their talents are. I believe doctors who smoke should have their medical licenses revoked. I don't expect them to be perfect, but if they want to smoke, then they need to enter some other profession. Pharmaceutical sales perhaps.

I don't care if my garbage collector smokes. Do you?

Or, asked another way, is it morally worse for a doctor to smoke than a garbage collector? I say it is in fact morally worse.

And we can both probably agree that priests, and anyone who lectures on morality, should follow what they claim to believe. But imperfection and inconsistency does not surprise me.

But I believe that the extent and moral depravity of the Catholic Church scandal exceeds other similar scandals in degree if not in kind.

all covered up by the archdiocese for many years. That many imperfect humans? Really? Credulity will not stretch that far.

This is not about human tendencies. It is about a cooperative system hiding evil. Easily recognized evil. In massive numbers, given the size of the sample.

You truly do not understand, I see. But, you have convinced yourself of something.

You're wrong.

Or your agenda.

Are there any perfect humans?

There are over 400,000 priests worldwide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_shortage_in_the_Catholic_Church

is acceptable for the RCC?

What number of child rapist should we say say is par for the course?

But, given that we are dealing with imperfect humans...…...

because humans are imperfect and we shouldn't expect them not to put organizational protection over raped children?

And I never suggested as much.

So do ideas. No bad ideas or institutions. Not even lynch mobs. Just people acting as people do. Sociologists just should close up their shops and do something useful. I hear the church needs a few good priests.

Rather than a subcultural phenomenon. Emphasizing the individual downplays factors beyond the indivudual and also blurs the differences between institutions that make it better or worse.

Did and does the RCC hide the problem? Yes.

You overgeneralize to the point of banality, another aspect of the myth of moral equivalence. As far as you are concerned, it makes no difference if 0.01% of priests took $1 off the collection every Sunday, or 100% were pedophiles. It's all crimes due to human traits and all things every institution would want to cover up. I am really surprised you argue to this extremity of moral equivalence but you do.

Contextual and necessary is pointing out that institutions demonstrate a tendency to hide wrong doing by members of an institution from the outside public.

If you are unaware of this tendency, more reading is suggested.

Nice try, but you failed.

Really? I don't think so, guillaumeb. Perhaps you failed to understand it, yourself.

Among whom we find many who seem to cluster in this forum. So I would say it is more of a small group thing.

edited to add:


You said "so many" when it is only 3 people. Do you feel that 3 is "so many", or are you attempting to sustain a meme?

3 posters so far. That certainly is a huge number.

You understand my meaning.

It's not like you are the first one in this group to try and deflect from the RCC's child rape culture. I'm sure you fancy yourself as better than average in that regard, but you're far from it. At least some of the others do a better job of concealing their true motives.

So while you are casting aspersions on what you think everyone's agenda is, let's not forget what yours is.

Just sayin'

let me know and I will join you in opposition.

And yet you keep at it, even doubling down. Very telling that.

For all the organizations... 'Protect the institution'... which protects the leaders.

systematic child abuse and institutional cover up is uniquely RCC problem for many reasons that are RCC specific. This makes RCC a criminal organization unlike the other institutions you had mentioned.

Pointing out the tendency for members of an institution to cover up for fellow members is stating the obvious.

The US military has a long history of sex abuse of members and civilians, and subsequent cover ups.

The situations of each institution will obviously be unique to that institution.

And given that most abuse occurs in the family, does that make families the issue?

Of course not. Predators are the issue, and covering up their acts.

All sorts of terrible things go on in families, and we do not have adequate social resources to address them, but a detailed analysis of families would be beyond the scope of the religion group. But the idea that "of course" families are not an issue can only come from someone who was blessed with a very good one.

And where it occurs.

One of my most difficult cases in the union was representing a member who had admitted to assaulting his daughter. While my focus and legal obligation as a Union Representative was on protecting his rights to be represented, I was very uncomfortable.

I spoke privately, at their request, to his wife and daughter, and they wanted his job protected because he was the primary income earner. What a horrible choice, what a terrible position, to be in, for wife and daughter!!

and not all involving difficult financial choices. And what all these have in common is a harmful family dynamic that locks people into bad situations. When sexual abuse occurs within a family it is a much more complex problem than when it occurs elsewhere that does in fact have a lot to do with how our society structures family relationships.

Truly, I do. But, now I do.

Last edited Tue Sep 4, 2018, 12:44 PM - Edit history (3)

You wrote:

And I was well aware of why victims do not report the crime, but in this case the guilty party had been convicted in court, and sentenced to probation and follow up counseling. Because I did not write that, you were misled by incomplete information, and for that I apologize, but the anecdote was not intended to be a complete case history.

My role was to unsure that the employee's contractual rights were guarded, as was my obligation under law as a union representative.

I hope that this further information makes you feel better.

That's often the case, I suspect, when reading posts on DU. People often omit important things and give an erroneous impression.

However, I still wonder if that person continued to abuse his daughter. Such is often the case.