Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
Sun Sep 16, 2018, 11:21 AM Sep 2018

And Then, Ignorance Begat Ignorance

All around us, there is evidence of human ignorance. On a daily basis, we encounter people who don't know things. For example, even on Democratic Underground, a political discussion forum, we find people who have almost no knowledge of the Constitution, the founding document of our country, and who propose impossible solutions for serious problems.

Ignorance of history, science, languages, common courtesy and much, much more is all too common. In fact, it is far more unusual to find people who know much about anything than it is to find people who know very little about everything.

It is ignorance that is the source of much of the misery of humanity. The saddest thing about that is that ignorance has a cure. One need not be ignorant, since resources for learning about anything have never been so easy to find, nor as accessible.

And yet, people flock to things like the Creation Museum, where they find exhibits showing humans and dinosaurs together. Pure ignorance on display and being further propagated, in the name of religion. Weekly, people gather in churches to learn things that are not true, and that have no evidence to support them.

Belief is no substitute for knowledge.

Ignorance is not an incurable disease. The cure is everywhere and it is free for the taking. Knowledge is available, but is sought after too rarely. Deliberate ignorance is apparently incurable, and may be related to raw stupidity, which cannot be cured at all.

Sometimes, I despair...

12 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
And Then, Ignorance Begat Ignorance (Original Post) MineralMan Sep 2018 OP
I believe that "belief" is the kryptonite of knowledge. dchill Sep 2018 #1
True enough. If you "believe," you might think there's nothing MineralMan Sep 2018 #2
I believe you're right. dchill Sep 2018 #3
And yet information is more available now that it's ever been. The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2018 #4
Yes, there is ignorance on all sides, not just religion. MineralMan Sep 2018 #5
And my post is relevant to religion The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2018 #8
Trying to figure out WHY people prefer ignorance isn't my goal, really. MineralMan Sep 2018 #9
Ignorance is easy... NeoGreen Sep 2018 #11
They say ignorance is bliss The Genealogist Sep 2018 #12
In 1960, with no internet, the republicans in Kansas believed that if JFK got elected demigoddess Sep 2018 #7
religious beliefs always seem to trump science. demigoddess Sep 2018 #6
and Ignorance begat... NeoGreen Sep 2018 #10

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
2. True enough. If you "believe," you might think there's nothing
Sun Sep 16, 2018, 11:34 AM
Sep 2018

you need to learn. Especially stuff that goes against your belief.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,719 posts)
4. And yet information is more available now that it's ever been.
Sun Sep 16, 2018, 12:05 PM
Sep 2018

Yes, a lot of nonsense is propagated in many churches. But not all ignorance can be blamed on religion; it's only one cause. At one point in history the church was the only source of learning - the clergy and the clergy-educated nobility were the only people who were literate. Almost all of the great musicians of the Middle Ages and early Renaissance were priests because the church was the only place you could learn music or get a job doing it. The great artists were able to make a living mainly from church commissions. One could say that what was learned from the church was not scientific but based on belief - the church's persecution of Galileo is a good example of this - but it did contribute enormously to literacy and the arts.

Right now , though, it seems to me that one of the prime causes of horrific ignorance isn't the church but the Internet, which, ironically, has made almost all the knowledge and learning in the world available to us, quite literally in our laps. But it's as full of crap as it is full of facts. For every hayseed out there who learned in his fundamentalist Christian church that Noah's Ark was a literal thing and that the earth is 6,000 years old, there are probably a thousand people who haven't seen the inside of a church in 20 years but who believe Hillary Clinton managed a child sex ring in the basement of a pizza parlor and that a deep state is trying to overthrow Trump in order to install a socialist government that will take away their guns and give their daughters to MS-13. The plague of social media craziness, not Jesus, is responsible for that.

And, as you note, there are also vast numbers of people (many right here on DU) who haven't a clue what's in the Constitution but nevertheless believe it can be changed at the drop of a hat to do whatever they want it to do. People jump all over any "news" story - including obvious satire - that bolsters their existing beliefs. We all suffer from confirmation bias and need to recognize it. Religiously-based belief in things that can't be true is merely an aspect of the human desire for things to be a certain way and to accept as fact anything that supports what they wanted to believe in the first place. If you were brought up in a religious denomination that teaches that Noah's Ark was real and that there were contemporaneous dinosaurs who drowned in the Flood or some such nonsense, you will enjoy a visit to the Creation Museum because it reinforces your belief. If you hate Hillary Clinton you might believe she managed a kiddie porn ring in a pizza parlor. If you think the Constitution makes it possible for Nancy Pelosi to become president this January you'll post it on DU.

Ignorance is everywhere because people don't like to challenge their own beliefs, religious or otherwise.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
5. Yes, there is ignorance on all sides, not just religion.
Sun Sep 16, 2018, 12:58 PM
Sep 2018

However, I posted this in the Religion Group, so I am discussing that in this thread as an example.

The reasons for ignorance are many, and much of it is deliberate ignorance, sadly.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,719 posts)
8. And my post is relevant to religion
Sun Sep 16, 2018, 03:27 PM
Sep 2018

because I was making the point that organized religion doesn't necessarily cause ignorance but tends to feed on and encourage it to the extent that the ignorance of believers furthers the larger goals of the organization. The same is often true of other organizations, especially political parties. Your point, with which I agree, is that people also want to be ignorant, if only subconsciously, because their ignorance furthers their psychological needs. Needing money to rebuild St. Peter's in Rome in 1517, Pope Leo X collected alms called indulgences based on an earlier teaching that these were good works by which people could "buy" their way into Heaven. I don't know whether Pope Leo actually believed this, but he definitely capitalized on it. Churchgoers believed it, though, enough to contribute a lot of money, and they felt better knowing they would go to Heaven. (Martin Luther didn't believe it and came up with the doctrine of justification by faith, but that's a whole 'nother story.) Believing God will protect them from serpents, some pastors fondle rattlesnakes during church services, with mixed results. If the snakes don't bite them their belief is reinforced and everybody feels good. (If they get bitten they claim their belief was insufficient). Many strange things are believed in the name of religion or politics or sheer foolishness, but there is always a psychological reward involved.

You might find this op-ed in this morning's Minneapolis Star-Tribune interesting, whether or not you agree with it:

We humans ask two questions of the world: how and why. How does the world work, a really useful body of knowledge if we’re to survive; and why is there anything rather than nothing, what is the purpose or meaning of our lives? Before the 17th century, these questions were one question, why a necessary part of how; Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton all looked to nature in order to verify scripture, to find God. What they found was more nature, which natural philosophers, or “scientists,” as they came to be called, beheld more clearly and more usefully the more they forgot about why and concentrated on how. In time, the two ways of understanding the world became completely separate and were often in conflict.

***

Problems arise when these two ways of knowing overlap. Ask a how authority about the purpose and meaning of life and you might be told that we’re in this world in order to pass our DNA on to future generations. Really? How has this motive produced the Taj Mahal, Bach’s “B Minor Mass,” “Pride and Prejudice,” “Sgt. Pepper”? Surely there’s more to it than that.

Creationists run into problems when they read the Genesis creation story, a why narrative if there ever was one, as a how document, a scientific treatise. The people who wrote/compiled the Genesis account(s) — Moses, if you will — and the people who read and listened to it, would not have known what we mean by scientific fact; the scientific method of empirical verification under carefully controlled, laboratory conditions was thousands of years in the future.

Yet even some of these “pre-scientific” people read the Genesis creation story as a “poetic” or allegorical account of the world’s origin. St. Augustine asserted in the fifth century A.D. that the universe was created not in six days but in an instant of time, which is more or less what the Big Bang Theory says (though Augustine and a modern physicist might not agree on what happened after that instant).
http://www.startribune.com/one-man-s-journey-to-reconcile-reason-and-faith/493347531/

Is it possible to bifurcate one's beliefs from one's desire for proof?

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
9. Trying to figure out WHY people prefer ignorance isn't my goal, really.
Sun Sep 16, 2018, 03:45 PM
Sep 2018

That they do prefer it is pretty obvious. I have an endless supply of curiosity, so looking for answers to all of the questions I have has been a primary priority in my life.

I've been asked what I thought the meaning of life is. My answer is simply, "to live." Life has random origins, it seems clear to me. It takes many forms and lasts for longer or shorter periods of time. The life of every organism has a beginning and an end, that that's the whole of it. Between those two points, life's meaning is simply to live. For each living thing, that can be a complex or simple process.

Humans have the rare, or even unique, quality of curiosity. We are able to ask questions that have no obvious answers. For some, finding answers is a basic need, and religion has satisfied that need for most individuals, historically, but not all.

I know more answers about those questions than most of the people who have ever lived. Today, more people are alive than ever before, and the curious among them now have incredible tools with which to seek answers. That's exciting for some, and frightening for others. The curious seek. The incurious or frightened take refuge in simple explanations, as they always have.

Even so, my life will end while I still have many questions that remain unanswered. I don't mind. It is the questioning that defines my life. When I have answers, there still remain questions. So, I needn't worry about running out of things to ponder and to learn.

Most proofs are temporary, as the history of science has taught us. There's always something new that offers to give us fresh answers at the most basic levels. Depending on one's level of curiosity, there's always something more to learn.

Settling for simple answers is OK for some, I suppose, but I'm not able to do that. "God did it," is an adequate answer for the incurious. It's entirely inadequate for me. That answer fails, beginning with the first question.

I live now, not in some other time in history. I know the history, but all whose names are written down are dead. I am alive, so my goal is to live, learn, and explore. It is enough.

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
11. Ignorance is easy...
Sun Sep 16, 2018, 07:05 PM
Sep 2018

...when someone hands you ready made unquestionable answers. Reality is hard, everything can be questioned at some level.

The Genealogist

(4,723 posts)
12. They say ignorance is bliss
Mon Sep 17, 2018, 08:03 PM
Sep 2018

To seek knowledge is to have questions. Answer a question and more pop up. Questions breed like rabbits. And questions, many feel, make life unsure. They make life complex, when it can seem so simple to just accept what you are told. You're asking for trouble if you ask questions, just asking for trouble, for problems.

It is far easier to join a church or other religious body, where there are so many answers there. Many religions have an answer for pretty much any question or issue that comes up. Money problems? Here is a Bible verse. Kids acting up? Bible verse for that. Work getting you down? Have another Bible verse. So much simpler.

demigoddess

(6,641 posts)
7. In 1960, with no internet, the republicans in Kansas believed that if JFK got elected
Sun Sep 16, 2018, 01:14 PM
Sep 2018

the Pope would run the country. Despite our Constitution, despite the Pope was busy. etc.

demigoddess

(6,641 posts)
6. religious beliefs always seem to trump science.
Sun Sep 16, 2018, 01:11 PM
Sep 2018

my sister in law seems to believe trash about how babies get born with birth defects and yet the college degrees abound in her family. I guess you can graduate from college without any science at all.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»And Then, Ignorance Begat...