Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

MineralMan

(146,319 posts)
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 02:50 PM Sep 2018

In the beginning, "god" put two lights in the sky.

One for day and one for night. That was a very, very early attempt at an explanation of why there is night and day. It's the best the storyteller in a tribe of itinerant shepherd and goatherds could come up with. "god did it." There are lights in the sky.

Jump ahead a few thousand years, and people are creating charts of the skies so they can predict the seasons of the year, etc. The "lights" in the sky move in a daily, annual and even millennial pattern that can be predicted, although the timing of that movement changes. That can be predicted, too, though, through keeping of detailed records.

For a very long time after that, it was thought that the sun and moon and other lights in the sky did the moving, with the Earth as the stationary center of that movement. It was complicated. Early stargazers kept more and more detailed records to make their predictions even more accurate. Complex diagrams were drawn to explain why things moved somewhat erratically.

Eventually, a few of those early astronomers and astrologers finally figured out that it wasn't really the sun and moon moving around the earth. It was much easier to explain if the earth was turning and circled around the sun. Then, the awkward diagrams could give way to a more sensible system. A system that even explained the weird apparent movements of the planets. About that time, the more or less spherical nature of our planet was understood, and things put more or less in their proper places.

We're even better at all that now, and have a very good understanding of the solar system and even of the nearby galaxy we're part of. We keep adding to our knowledge, through observation, mathematics, and other modern inventions.

And yet. And yet, there are still people who claim that everything in Genesis, the first book of the Bible is god's own truth. Every word of it is accurate and true. The simplistic explanations of a early tribal storyteller are still being told. Religion is like that. It holds onto everything and resists any other explanation. Now, almost all Christians understand the solar system and all that stuff, more or less, but the Bible story is still true, see. Imagine all of the other stories in that ancient scripture. Same story-tellers. Same time period, more or less. Same level of accuracy. We know better about the sun and moon now.

What are we missing with the rest? Why do we cling to those old fables, still? There's the question, really.

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
In the beginning, "god" put two lights in the sky. (Original Post) MineralMan Sep 2018 OP
Eppur se muove. The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2018 #1
Indeed it does. MineralMan Sep 2018 #3
Genesis was oral history long before it was written. LongTomH Oct 2018 #20
Wow...next you're going to try to convince me Noah didn't have Dinos on the ark! Docreed2003 Sep 2018 #2
Just the smaller ones, though. Those gigantic ones wouldn't fit, MineralMan Sep 2018 #4
Velociraptors aren't so big that they wouldn't fit, but they'd have eaten all the other animals The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2018 #5
No, no...they were vegetarians, then. MineralMan Sep 2018 #6
They still have their uses. The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2018 #9
LOL! MineralMan Sep 2018 #10
In the beginning Man created God . . . Journeyman Sep 2018 #7
Ayup... MineralMan Sep 2018 #8
This is a good example of why their gods aren't big enough for my universe. Pope George Ringo II Sep 2018 #11
There. Were. No. Gods. It's all stories told by shamans MineralMan Sep 2018 #12
Indeed. Pope George Ringo II Sep 2018 #13
Yes. It is those questions that started it. MineralMan Sep 2018 #15
Born out of a necessity to answer the question of where the sun goes at night Major Nikon Sep 2018 #14
Yes, at a time when there were no answers. MineralMan Sep 2018 #16
Even when we don't it's childish to pretend hocus pocus is the answer Major Nikon Sep 2018 #17
Yes, of course. MineralMan Sep 2018 #18
Not to mention.. Permanut Sep 2018 #19
We're probably taking that out of context. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2018 #21

MineralMan

(146,319 posts)
3. Indeed it does.
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 02:58 PM
Sep 2018

Compared with the historical time of human existence, Galileo lived not so long ago, really. Estimates of the time of the writing of Genesis have it being written a few millennia ago. Galileo is recent history, really.

I mean, we're still attending plays written by Shakespeare at about the same time, after all.

And yet it moves.

LongTomH

(8,636 posts)
20. Genesis was oral history long before it was written.
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 12:56 PM
Oct 2018

Probably there were multiple sources there. I've read that the earliest sources were actually polytheistic.

Docreed2003

(16,868 posts)
2. Wow...next you're going to try to convince me Noah didn't have Dinos on the ark!
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 02:57 PM
Sep 2018

Well, you'd be wrong, sir...just check out this fine exhibit at the "Ark Encounter" in Kentucky!!




(Lol, sorry...I couldn't resist!)

MineralMan

(146,319 posts)
4. Just the smaller ones, though. Those gigantic ones wouldn't fit,
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 02:59 PM
Sep 2018

so they drowned in the flood and got fossilized near the Grand Canyon, see...yeah, that's the ticket...

God did it, dammit! And don't you forget that.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,777 posts)
5. Velociraptors aren't so big that they wouldn't fit, but they'd have eaten all the other animals
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 03:01 PM
Sep 2018

plus Noah and his family. It still doesn't make any sense!

MineralMan

(146,319 posts)
6. No, no...they were vegetarians, then.
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 03:03 PM
Sep 2018

They ate, you know, cabbages and stuff. You've got them all wrong. Children played with them, even.

Journeyman

(15,036 posts)
7. In the beginning Man created God . . .
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 03:09 PM
Sep 2018

1 In the beginning Man created God;
And in the image of Man created he him.

2 And Man gave unto God a multitude of names,
that he might be Lord over all the earth when it was suited to Man.

3 And on the seven millionth day Man rested
and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.

4 And Man formed Aqualung of the dust of the ground,
and a host of others likened unto his kind.

5 And these lesser men Man did cast into the void. And some were burned;
and some were put apart from their kind.

6 And Man became the God that he had created
and with his miracles did rule over all the earth.

7 But as these things did come to pass,
the Spirit that did cause Man to create his God
lived on within all men: even within Aqualung.

8 And Man saw it not.

9 But for Christ’s sake he’d better start looking.



Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull): Liner notes for Aqualung

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
11. This is a good example of why their gods aren't big enough for my universe.
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 04:36 PM
Sep 2018

So many pantheons involve one of the gods putting the sun in the sky, or moving it across the sky each day, or building a new sun each day. or whatnot. It's one of the central, existential questions which religion pretends to answer so most invent a fairly central story.

But even their beginning is just a screwed-up version of the birth of our solar system, rather than the universe. And while many of these creation stories do at least manage to guess right about our sun being (probably) the last star here, I can't actually think of one which genuinely acknowledges that our sun had at least two predecessors right here in our little patch of matter. Put aside all the problems with biology, chemistry--and all the other problems with physics--and it's like their gods were very late to the game somehow. Where were these gods in the earlier stars' lives? Any god who showed up that late really isn't big enough for my universe, all things considered.

It's enough to make you wonder if their gods were completely unaware of how stars function and this is all just a bunch of malarkey invented by superstitious people with no idea how the world worked.

MineralMan

(146,319 posts)
12. There. Were. No. Gods. It's all stories told by shamans
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 06:12 PM
Sep 2018

who had no freaking idea about anything. Feh! I recognize that you know that, just in case you misunderstood.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
13. Indeed.
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 07:10 PM
Sep 2018

But I find it curious that their imagination creates gods not big enough to encompass reality. And nowhere is it more apparent than in astrophysics that their imaginary friends are simply too pathetic to mean anything.

MineralMan

(146,319 posts)
15. Yes. It is those questions that started it.
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 07:57 PM
Sep 2018

We have learned the real answers to most of those questions now, and are continuing to learn even more. If we don't pay attention, we might just destroy it all, actually.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
14. Born out of a necessity to answer the question of where the sun goes at night
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 07:32 PM
Sep 2018

...and where grandma and grandpa went.

10,000 yrs later we are still telling fairy tales to children with some adults pretending to still believe it.

MineralMan

(146,319 posts)
16. Yes, at a time when there were no answers.
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 08:00 PM
Sep 2018

It made sense then. It no longer does. It's time for humans to grow up and recognize that magic is not the answer. We know what the answers to those basic questions are.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
17. Even when we don't it's childish to pretend hocus pocus is the answer
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 08:09 PM
Sep 2018

Just because something is unknown doesn’t mean made up mythology is a reasonable solution.

MineralMan

(146,319 posts)
18. Yes, of course.
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 08:18 PM
Sep 2018

What happens to grandma might seem to be such a question. There is an answer, though. "Grandma is gone. But she will always be part of us. We have her genes. We also have all of our memories of her. You will pass on her genes to your children, if you have children. You will also pass on your memories of her and teach the lessons you learned from her."

That is truth. That is how rational, non-religious people explain it. It is truth without magic.

How hard is that?

Permanut

(5,617 posts)
19. Not to mention..
Sun Sep 30, 2018, 09:56 PM
Sep 2018

That "light" was created on the first day, but the sun was not created until the fourth day. Still working on the physics of that.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
21. We're probably taking that out of context.
Mon Oct 8, 2018, 04:38 PM
Oct 2018

You know the rules. If it sounds nonsensical or horrible, you're probably reading it wrong.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»In the beginning, "god" p...