It should be noted that the sole reason for the formation of the "Southern Baptist Convention" was the support of slavery. It's all well and good that some within that group are finally openly acknowledging that fact, but that fact is not some new epiphany. The SBC foundation was directly related to the support of slavery.

And slave owning capitalists needed a religious justification for their behavior.


Sad too that 150 years after the civil war in this country, the fight continues.

There's certainly no lack of support for the practice of slavery in that book.

While it's fallen out of fashion to use biblical references for such things, that doesn't mean attitudes have changed much.. Meanwhile the haters still direct their hate openly at other groups using the bible to reinforce their hatred.

...your position has remained "change takes time".

Funny. In a not-at-all-funny sort of way.

If so, I would say that your expectations are unrealistic.

Please, sage teacher, enlighten us.

So you provide the timetable, based on the historical record.

I'm not the one telling people their anger at the Catholic Church for its refusal to address systemic sexual abuse is unreasonable. You are.

well done.

Run along.

nt

The question is not, "When is change likely?"

The question is, "When is one right to be outraged?"

The question for a Buddhist is "What can I do to make the situation better?" The Buddhist view is not to get discouraged and fall into indifference -- even if achieving the goal is an eon away.

Are they gonna go for a third?

The suspense is killing me.

nt

...something "some Buddhists" vociferously insist they're above, when clearly they are not.

No matter. I'll give this one more go-around before seeking greener pastures:

Our esteemed colleague was raised in the Catholic tradition and has several times attacked his fellow posters for feeling the Catholic Church's response to systemic sexual abuse within their ranks has been less than adequate. He insists we are unrealistic and irrational, that expect too much of the Church because change takes time. If you think he's trying to teach us patience, you're sorely mistaken. He's telling us to shut the fuck up.

Sexual misconduct has plagued Buddhism as well. And no, I don't try to convert anyone. People have to ask for teachings. You missed my point entirely. Sexual misconduct, fraud, intimidation, aggression, violence, war, etc have been with human society since forever. Since eons. Passing laws doesn't seem to very effective in eradicating it.

I'm not sure how any of that is relevant.

How long were you willing to give them to change and become more tolerant of bigoted Republicans?

None of this is new. It's all been known for decades. What does the word "immediate" mean to you?

Any reading of history shows that.

How long are the faithful supposed to wait? Until Jesus returns?

You tell me.

You truly do not see the connection between religion and racism? Really? In spite of the evidence?

Is the Southern Baptist Convention not a large enough sample of Christianity for you? It's the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. It has extraordinary power. Why does it not advise its followers to stop being racists? Because it is a racist organization itself. That's why. A Christian church that promotes racism. Bravo!

If you do not, or cannot, perhaps you need to do more reading on human behavior.

Nonsense! You are making excuses, once again, for your co-religionists. We can see right through that, Guy.

Humans behave as humans behave. If you expect one group to behave differently, explain why.

They can be led by leaders of groups, but they still behave as individuals. Religions claim to promote the good, but end up promoting what is obviously not good. I am unaffected by that. Their followers follow their lead. Their behavior is affected by the leadership of their religions. The human misery that has caused is visible and has been visible for centuries. You are acting as an apooigist for that.

A pox on it all, Guy! A pox.

You think your "I believe in free will but shit's a mess because humans are gonna human amirite?" theory is superior?

Pro-tip: it isn't.

Yes, it would be easy if we could point to one thing and say that is the problem, but life does not work that way.

Simpler than "intolerance"?

You wrote the book on oversimplification, friendo.

But some persist in singling out religion as the reason, or the primary reason, for violence.

You're the one who drags unrelated subjects into the discussion. The topic is religion, not patriotism.

This is the Religion Group. We discuss religion here. Patriotism is another topic altogether.

Another example of the perfect attacking the good.

Wasn't even difficult.

Your holy book gives instructions on how to care for one's slaves, you know. Jesus himself supported slavery, and did not condemn it.

And that fixation on the past, especially the slave owning past, indicates that they truly have not learned from history.

Hardly an insignificant organization. When will they change? I'm guessing never.

as not being perfection.

Do tell. Have they solved the decades old, well-known sexual abuse of children by priests? Have the fundamentalist Protestants and Catholics stopped trying to prevent women from making their own reproductive decisions. They've been doing that for decades, too. Do, describe some tangible progress for me that has been directed by church leaders and is truly effective.

I'll wait here, for as long as I can. I expect I'll be dead, though, before you have anything to report. And so it goes...

Most abuse happens in the home.

So why do you expect religious institutions to do what humanity cannot do?

I will wait for your answer.

doing. As a non-Christian, I must rely on people like you to give me such information. Do you have none to offer?

I'm not a Christian. I do not, nor have I ever, sexually abused anyone. Nobody I know has done so. I have fought against racism and for reproductive rights. I am not a Christian. Christians have fought to preserve racism, block women's right and their priests have committed sexual abuse against children and shielded the offenders from justice.

I am a human, and I just told you what progress I have made and worked toward. I asked you about the Christian religion. Tell me what progress it has made in those regards and in others.

Don't try to change the subject, Guy.

And this post is about such change.

But to those who question the pace of such change, I suggest that reading history provides the answer.

Your personal story has no relevance. It is likely that most humans do not abuse others.

But since we are exchanging stories, I have been politically active for progressive causes since my early adult years.

But you changed the topic to insist that change is too slow. As if there were a framework and a timetable for large scale change.

Despite its claims to be who should guide humanity, it has failed miserably in doing so. Now, I wish for it to become financially bankrupt as well, and abandoned by its members who it has failed.

I do have a timetable for change. It is a very short one. Change now! Not sometime down the road. Now. The Pope could change the church's position with the stroke of his Latin-writing pen. The SBC could decide that it had been wrong all those decades and declare racism to be a sin against humanity, which it obviously is.

My personal story is my personal story, as is yours. Mine is completely unaffected by the vagaries of Christianity, and is based on common sense and a recognition of the value of each human being. I don't see that recognition in the largest of organized religious groups. In fact, I see exactly the opposite.

Religion is not a positive influence on humanity. It has never been that. History, which you are so fond of referring to, demonstrates that beyond a doubt. How many have suffered and died from the ills of organized religion, Guy? Count them for me.

And it is relevant to you.

Your timetable is unrealistic, and unsupported by history. But you can insist on that timetable, and on your personal view of history.

As to your closing remark, you have stated it many times. But your focus is again far too narrow.

It is rejected by fools.

Again. Demonstrating?

My debate Professor said that when a person resorts to insults, that is a sure sign that the person is losing the debate.

You, by your own account, act in proper ways, as an individual, so I'm not insulting you.

I do.

DECEMBER 17, 2018
Southern Baptist Seminary Documents And Discloses History Of 'Deep Racism'
The largest Protestant denomination in the United States is apologizing for its dark history of racism. Albert Mohler, Lawrence Ware and Curtis Woods join Meghna Chakrabarti.

You can listen to the show at their website. I'm not a current member of that denomination, but I was in high school years. I found it interesting.

But to really deal with continuing systemic racism, each organization and its membership must recognize that it continues.

Apologies are not enough if the behavior persists.