I understand that these stories do not fit what you prefer to see in this Group. Some people prefer a binary view of religion, others see the bigger picture.


Have you ever asked that Chinese acquaintance about all of these stories?

I live in a country where all religious people are free to practice their religions freely, except, perhaps Muslims, whose houses of worship are frequently attacked by misguided Christians. There are churches and other houses of worship on almost every other corner. I have no influence on China whatsoever. It does not offer the same level of freedom to religions that the United States does.

That is unfortunate for those who seek to worship a religion in that country. I do not believe that I have any influence whatever on that unfortunate situation. I have no relationship with China at all.

My colleague from China is a U.S. Citizen now. He is not a religious person at all. He has family that still lives in China, but they are not religious, either. He has not mentioned this situation to me. We generally discuss matters that involve the business we both participate in. I'll see him on Wednesday, and will ask him your question. I predict he will shrug and say that it is not his concern and that he has nothing to do with China any longer.

the Red Army. People have forgot about Mao and his Purge. It is after all China a Monolithic Nation.

My primary focus is on government in this country.

Just put that out there hoping others understand what China is all about. We have a Niece who's Son teach wealthy Chinese Business People's preschoolers English. Being aware of local norms as well as rules is paramount for him. Understand he just received a extension on his Employment Contract for two more years.

He's from China, but fled that country after the Tienanmen massacre and is now a U.S. Citizen who has his PhD from a US University. We're in business together. I know he's not religious, nor is his family. I'm not sure he knows any more about this situation than I do, frankly, but I'll ask him.

He still has family there, and travels to China occasionally, but when he's there, he spends all of his time with his aging parents.

we last spoke to him in July when he was back for a month holiday,he spoke of the awareness of surveillance because of being a American working with a long term Visa. And his Acquaintances are artist's and theater types and Techies. So he is very aware as well as his friends.

China is all about preserving its cultural and political system. So, anyone who is not in line with that gets watched and restricted if they go past some point.

Apparently, it is the independent Christian "house" churches that are under scrutiny and restrictions - the ones that refuse to become "official" Christian churches. That's what I'm getting from Guy's many posts on the topic.

China has a very restrictive political system. None of us would do well in it, I'm quite certain. Certainly I would feel very restricted and limited by such a system.

However, using China's restrictions on religion as a whataboutism when anyone brings up some restriction imposed BY a religious group somewhere else is ridiculous. There is no equivalency, nor any connection.

if they visited China and found their favorite so called house of hate turned into a Museum . Another topic for another day.

The leaders of the Chinese Government have decided that all theists will follow the guidelines that are approved by the Chinese Government. In essence, the Government will determine what is the approved theology.

If you choose to frame this as whataboutism, that is your decision. But invoking whataboutism in this way is incorrect because that would require an intent on my part to divert from a topic. and I freely admit that many theists behave in the same manner when they have power.

Totalitarians behave as totalitarians. And if we really value liberty, and tolerance, those values should not stop at the US borders.

What do you propose be done about the situation in China? Do you have any ideas on how to improve things there?

But that would require placing what we claim to value as a country with the value of Chinese trade.

And we all know what capitalists value the most.

But the topic here is already established.

Plant it in another post and watch the growth of dialogue.

Not that anyone is keeping count.

Not that anyone is keeping a count.

Pretty much everyone would find it a good example of shitposting.

Please do continue with your false equivalence tho. It's the only thing you're really good at.

And I understand why you wish to continue avoiding the actual substance of the actual post in favor of insults.

it's an especially popular pastime for oppressive governments religious and otherwise.

It seems like every sect of Christianity wants to edit the "word of God" to suit their own ideas.

Make no mistake, it's not right for China to restrict the religious worship of its citizens. That's wrong for them to do. However, as someone else asked of guillaumeb, I wonder what he thinks can or should be done to change what China is doing. We're all aware of this problem, to be sure, but what to do about it remains a mystery.

Perhaps he'll provide us with some guidance. Maybe he can give us a model letter to send to Xi, explaining how he should change how the country is run. I don't know.

Expecting that to change is an exercise in futility, I'm sure.

I must say that I'm at a loss, though, to understand guillaumeb's frequent posts regarding religious oppression in China. He never seems to offer any suggestions as to what we might do to change that. In fact, it seems as though he posts such things whenever someone points out something a Christian group or individual has done that is somehow harmful. Perhaps he's trying to tell us something by presenting some sort of equivalency message.

However, it's not directly equivalent at all. Today, the China post appears to be related to a post about some Christians in Israel throwing Molotov cocktails to protest a satirical work of art that depicts Ronald MacDonald nailed to a cross. Apparently those Molotov cocktails are justified in Israel because China has shut down a church. I can't see the equivalence, but Guy can, apparently.

It's often confusing around here, so I just muddle along as best as I'm able.

I am searching for that meaning.

Keep searching, because I will definitely keep writing posts.

but my poor theistic brain, unused to logic and insight, may not be equal to the task.

It's definitely not atheism, because there is nothing in atheism to inspire or command any of that.

So what is it?

And more importantly, why do you keep beating and beating everyone in this forum over the head with the behavior of the Communist Chinese government? What are you trying to prove? (Hint: you're not proving what you really really REALLY wish you could.)

Like all totalitarians, their goal is power. And control. In this case, the totalitarians are atheists.

What does it prove? You tell me. My view is that it shows that no matter the beliefs, or positions if you prefer, people behave in the same way.

Religion CAN be a motivation for doing horrible things.

Power CAN be a motivation for doing horrible things.

Atheism cannot.

No, you are giving your own view, a view that eliminates atheism as a motivating factor. Perhaps some atheists hate theists so much that they see religion as evil. Or as a rival to be eliminated.

A nice try at eliminating a possible factor, and I understand why you wish to do so.

Where's the holy book of atheism, g? Where are its commandments? What are its teachings?

After you've identified all of those things, then you must demonstrate that all the Chinese leaders are atheists.

After you've done that, then explain how their atheism motivates them to do the things you post about.

You've got quite the challenge ahead of you. I bet you're going to refuse to do it, because you know you can't.

And you are no Christian. You judge others, and you believe in "eye for an eye" justice.

You spoke for atheists. Not some atheists, but atheists.

And your claim is unprovable because you have no insight into what motivates atheists as a class of humans.

Because there is no teaching or message of atheism, by definition.

What part are you having trouble understanding, g?

What did you understand my message to be?

You have specifically stated YOUR motivation for constantly posting about actions taken by the Chinese government is that you feel there are too many posts talking about the RCC child sex abuse scandals.

Your message is clear. You don't want people to talk about the negative aspects of religion, so you keep trying different things to silence the viewpoints you don't like.

You insult, name-call, and smear using your favorite terms like "choir" and "11th commandment" and other nonsense.

You post about the Chinese government over and over, hoping to paint the false equivalence picture for people that says "Atheists are doing this horrible thing, so no one can blame religion for anything."

Your motivations are clear.

Now go ahead and insult me and/or my intelligence again. Or make a snarky lame comeback. You know, your usual responses, instead of actually just fucking saying what it is you actually mean.

Interesting how another poster who is currently posting in the religion group is receiving much the same treatment as I am.

It might be a coincidence, or it might be a validation of my earlier observation about a Commandment that shall remain unnumbered. And the requirements of that unnumbered Commandment.

You support "eye for an eye" justice - lashing out at people after you've judged them. Everyone you've slammed as being part of a "choir" has asked you to stop - but you keep using the term to insult and smear. Same with your commandment nonsense. You dehumanize and demonize. Why do you do this? Is this how Christians are supposed to behave? Are you setting a good example?

Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.

and use whatever suits them to validate that behavior.

People are going to behave as they wish no matter what.

LOL gil, you did it again.

"It proves that people behave as they wish, and use whatever suits them to validate that behavior."

You didn't qualify it AT ALL. You just said people are going to behave as they wish - nothing will change that. Not even religion.

You destroyed your own position, g. At this point you must ENJOY humiliating yourself because I really don't see how else you could bear to continue posting here.

And the reading, no surprise, allows you to claim that I said or implied something.

I have taken your words at face value.

You don't like what you said and are trying to squirm out of the consequences.

Too bad.

Your second statement is ironic.

Can't defend your point, just refer to previous post and imply the other person is stupid.

Has never worked for you, but you keep trying. No wonder no one takes you seriously.

Except for when it is inconvenient to the point Billy here is trying to make.

Last edited Mon Jan 14, 2019, 07:09 PM - Edit history (1)

the Chinese are finally catching up to the Catholic Church. It's just taken them a few hundred years.

What does this say about the Chinese Government?

not a rebuttal to criticism of the Chinese.

The Chinese Government are not good guys.

We agree.

it's always hard to tell on the internet.

I usually remember to put the thingy in.

I usually indicate with a parenthetical (sarcasm alert).

Feel free to expound on this.