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moobu2

(4,822 posts)
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 03:48 PM Oct 2012

Catholic theologian preaches revolution to end church's 'authoritarian' rule (lol)

Hans Küng urges confrontation from the grassroots to unseat pope and force radical reform at Vatican


One of the world's most prominent Catholic theologians has called for a revolution from below to unseat the pope and force radical reform at the Vatican.

Hans Küng is appealing to priests and churchgoers to confront the Catholic hierarchy, which he says is corrupt, lacking credibility and apathetic to the real concerns of the church's members.

In an exclusive interview with the Guardian, Küng, who had close contact with the pope when the two worked together as young theologians, described the church as an "authoritarian system" with parallels to Germany's Nazi dictatorship.

"The unconditional obedience demanded of bishops who swear their allegiance to the pope when they make their holy oath is almost as extreme as that of the German generals who were forced to swear an oath of allegiance to Hitler," he said.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/05/catholic-revolution-nazi-dictatorship-pope
17 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Catholic theologian preaches revolution to end church's 'authoritarian' rule (lol) (Original Post) moobu2 Oct 2012 OP
Revolution? Why bother? silverweb Oct 2012 #1
Nothing is going to change. Dawson Leery Oct 2012 #2
Brave he is. cbayer Oct 2012 #3
Hans Kung has a long and sturdy record. rug Oct 2012 #4
Show us the dogma!!! patrice Oct 2012 #5
When has the Catholic hierarchy skepticscott Oct 2012 #6
Considering he's been writing on this for fifty years, he's hardly late to the party. rug Oct 2012 #8
As noted skepticscott Oct 2012 #10
Seems to me he set the table fifty years ago. rug Oct 2012 #13
All the while skepticscott Oct 2012 #15
Actually, he was stripped of his right to teach Catholic theology some years ago. rug Oct 2012 #17
And if someone is going to speak on dogma they need to tell us how killing INNOCENTS in "just war" patrice Oct 2012 #7
Follow the Money Angry Dragon Oct 2012 #9
To the "why bothers" above: I disagree! Peace Patriot Oct 2012 #11
Great post. You might consider an op if you want some discussion. cbayer Oct 2012 #14
The fundamental difference skepticscott Oct 2012 #16
The RCC is very hip to objections it is not conservative enough. Hence the SSPX dimbear Oct 2012 #12

silverweb

(16,402 posts)
1. Revolution? Why bother?
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 03:51 PM
Oct 2012

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]The church hierarchy have no authority unless you grant it to them. Just walk away.

Dawson Leery

(19,348 posts)
2. Nothing is going to change.
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 04:13 PM
Oct 2012

The only option is to leave the church. If the RCC lost their first world membership, the church would collapse. Without their money flowing to this horrible/evil institution, it would collapse.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
5. Show us the dogma!!!
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 04:46 PM
Oct 2012

I don't get it. "unconditional obedience demanded of bishops who swear allegiance" to popes on matters that are NOT ex-cathedra. Even papal bulls are based solely on institutional authority, sometimes "about" dogma, but NOT dogma itself.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
6. When has the Catholic hierarchy
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 04:49 PM
Oct 2012

NOT been "corrupt, lacking credibility and apathetic to the real concerns of the church's members"? Seriously, Herr Kung...they were that way the day you were born, and every day of your life since, resting on a history of hundreds of years of the same before you were even an unspillable sperm. And you're just joining the party now??

Forgive me for not applauding his Theological Greatness.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
8. Considering he's been writing on this for fifty years, he's hardly late to the party.
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 04:56 PM
Oct 2012

You really should know before you mock.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
15. All the while
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 09:07 PM
Oct 2012

remaining a Catholic theologian and enabler of Catholic idiocy (not to mention still sucking up to Ratzi).

How's that change from within thingie working for him?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
17. Actually, he was stripped of his right to teach Catholic theology some years ago.
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 09:55 PM
Oct 2012

While he remains a priest in good standing, he taught ecumenical theology at the University of Tübingen.

He's done well.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
7. And if someone is going to speak on dogma they need to tell us how killing INNOCENTS in "just war"
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 04:53 PM
Oct 2012

is any different from abortion.

Maybe if we individually accepted the consequences of our decisions on our own souls, rather than delegating them to religious and civil powers, there'd be LESS war and FEWER ABORTIONS.

Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
11. To the "why bothers" above: I disagree!
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 06:57 PM
Oct 2012

Of course, it's anybody's right to "walk away" from the Roman Catholic Church, and, quite frankly, I can imagine Jesus doing exactly that in disgust at its hatred of women, corruption, alliance with the uber-rich, fetishism, dogmatism, arrogance and powermongering.

But what an amazing thing it would be--the correction of almost 2,000 years of twisted thinking--if the reformers succeed, and I am especially thinking of the female reformers, so long and so brutally suppressed. I am very familiar with this struggle and have huge admiration for it.

No, I want to see Christianity reclaimed by the Christians, the Pope and all his swishy-robed ring-kissers evicted from their thrones and a REAL community of lovers of humanity created from the bottom up.

As to the possibility of success, history shows us, time and again, that great progressive movements arise by fits and starts, and those that ultimately succeed are those that remain undaunted by setbacks. There was a short-term opening in this struggle within the Church in the 1960s. The fascists shut it down. That is not reason for despair, any more than the many, many episodes of labor organizing or black civil rights organizing that occurred long before those rights were established, were cause for despair. They were signposts along the road. We must not forget this history. Little movements, stifled movements, seemingly temporary movements, ignored and marginalized movements CAN grow and accumulate strength and numbers over time. If the ideas are heartfelt and genuine and a benefit to humanity, they WILL return.

I've lived through some of the most amazing events in human history. One of them was the end of apartheid in South Africa. The brutality and totality of that racist oppression seemed impregnable, up to the moment that it was overturned!

Segregation in the U.S. South was also very, very entrenched. You only had to walk through a southern town and stand and look at a "whites only" drinking fountain to grasp how awful it was and how difficult it would be to overturn it. Overturning it did not happen overnight. It took a half a century--and really an entire century, all in all--of "fits and starts" struggles and events, culminating in the civil rights movement and the outlawing of segregation in the 1960s.

The same applies to the anti-slavery movement itself--small beginnings, just a few dissidents, fits and starts, but ever growing over time, until slavery was outlawed everywhere. Inside the slavery system, and within the societies that were tolerating slavery, most people, at first, couldn't imagine the end of slavery. The abolitionists and the individuals and networks of rebellion among the slaves persisted, despite terrible setbacks. They changed the world--not all at once, but over time. It seems sudden--in our telescopic view of history. It wasn't.

I'm also thinking of the overturning of the vicious white racist rule in Bolivia, which occurred just recently, in the last half decade and is, in fact, still in progress. The white racism was so ugly and so vicious, that, even up into the 1960s, Indigenous people--the majority in Bolivia--were not allowed to walk on the sidewalks! They were treated like brutes and slaves, and often beaten and murdered, including the murder of dozens of Indigenous in 2008, during a U.S.-supported white separatist insurrection. The transformation of Bolivia, with its new Constitution and its Indigenous president, Evo Morales, did not occur overnight, and did not occur without long-term struggle, suffering and courageous effort.

Also, remember this: Often, the more rigid and outlandish a system of oppression becomes, the weaker it has become within. I think this is very true of the Roman Catholic Church. And, though the Church's oppression in the modern era has been mostly mental, psychological and spiritual oppression, it is nevertheless a system that affects millions and millions of people. To liberate those people--or rather, for those people to liberate themselves--from the fascist monarchy in Rome would be of very great benefit to humanity. Most will not abandon their church and their faith--but they ARE capable of transforming it; and of returning it to its very simple and inspiring beginnings in "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others."

We've seen some notable "fits and starts" of this beneficial movement during my lifetime--Pope John XXIII and the Second Vatican Council, the struggles of the Immaculate Heart sisters in Los Angeles, and a similar struggle that is going on right now between American nuns and the Vatican fascists, the "Liberation Theology" movement in Latin America and elsewhere, revival of the radical Catholic Worker movement, and the very difficult struggle, mostly led by ordinary Catholics, against child molestation by priests.

These are beneficial--and, in many ways, awesome--developments, led by noble and courageous people. Advising them to "leave the Church," to just "walk away," is comparable to telling, say, Evo Morales, back when he was an unknown coca leaf farmer, to just walk away from Bolivia. How can you walk away from something you love, from the struggles of the people you love? Maybe he should've gone to Venezuela, where the leftist democracy movement was more advanced, and led an easier life writing pamphlets against the racists in the land of his birth? No way! For him, the defining issue of his life was joined in Bolivia, head to head with racist oppressors and U.S. power.

This is true of many nuns, priests and Catholic laypeople whom I have known. The struggle to open their hearts, free their minds and save their souls starts with changing the institution that has gone so very wrong and that has imprisoned so many hearts, minds and souls in fascist dogma.

They should at the least be treated with respect for what they are trying to do (and not told "why bother?&quot . But I give them much more than that. They are part of a revolutionary movement that is intricately connected to other social and political struggles. Many of these religious revolutionaries have been tortured and murdered in Latin America, for instance, precisely because they supported struggles for social justice and democracy. It is the threat they pose, to rule by the uber-rich and by transglobal corporations and war profiteers, that prompts the corrupt monarchy in Rome to to try to suppress them. They are in the forefront of peace marches, and social justice and human rights protests. They are the ones at the "School of the Americas" every year, and at nuclear weapons installations, never letting us forget the brutal power of the Have's.

These are very admirable people, indeed, who remain members of the Catholic Church and who agree with Hans Kung, though they might not say it exactly the way he did-- "a revolution from below to unseat the pope and force radical reform at the Vatican." Some are more into peaceful witness than into force and confrontation. But they would agree with the urgent need for very fundamental reform "from below"--and that universal belief of Catholic revolutionaries extends beyond the Church into all of society, and the other way round--extends from society into the Church.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
16. The fundamental difference
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 09:14 PM
Oct 2012

is that participation in, and support and enabling of, Catholic Church oppression and bigotry is entirely voluntary. And yet, it continues wholeheartedly. And many of the most respected and admired posters on this board (you know who they are), support it unabashedly.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
12. The RCC is very hip to objections it is not conservative enough. Hence the SSPX
Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:04 PM
Oct 2012

controversy. All lefties, OTOH, are welcome to take the door. Also, all lefties not going to be missed.

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