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rug

(82,333 posts)
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:44 AM Oct 2012

Empty Pews: Everyone is Misreading the New Numbers of Religiously “Unaffiliated”

Yes, there are more people who don't belong to any particular church, and yet many still believe in God

By Tim Padgett
October 12, 2012

Earlier this week, while men in miters hunkered down in Rome for the start of a bishops synod on how to make the Roman Catholic Church more relevant to the 21st Century—which coincides with the 50th anniversary of Vatican II, the council charged with making the Church more relevant in the 20th Century—the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life in Washington, D.C., released a survey indicating just how futile their task might be. It reports that one-fifth of the U.S. public, and a third of adults under 30, aren’t affiliated with any religion today—a 15% increase in just the past five years. While religious leaders bemoaned the data and, like the Vatican synod, vowed to defy it, groups like the New Jersey-based American Atheists cheered the Pew study as evidence that the “number of godless continues to rise” and that the “stranglehold of religion is fading away.”

But both responses—the alarmed resistance from many corners of organized religion and the smug celebration among many atheists—are a misreading of the Pew findings. The survey reveals neither a “tsunami of secularism,” which Cardinal Donald Wuerl of Washington, D.C., spokesman for the bishops synod, fears is bearing down on organized religion, nor a triumphant upsurge of “godless” atheists who revere Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. Despite the rise in the religiously unaffiliated, for example, Pew also found that more than two-thirds of those people believe in God. What’s out there instead is a nation of people who, like most people in most nations in the developed West, acknowledge faith as a positive human urge but are increasingly, and not too surprisingly, turned off by the often archaic institutions that claim to represent faith.

According to Pew, the spiritually engaged but religiously unaffiliated do think that “churches and other religious institutions benefit society by strengthening community bonds and aiding the poor.” But “overwhelmingly,” it adds, “they think that religious organizations are too concerned with money and power, too focused on rules and too involved in politics.”

The Catholic Church’s sexual abuse scandal is a depressing example of that hierarchical preoccupation with power. Cardinal Wuerl, who cracked down on pedophile priests when so many bishops were shielding them, is an encouraging exception. But even he betrayed a certain denial about his church’s real problems in his opening address to this week’s synod, when he urged Catholics to “overcome the syndrome of embarrassment” about faith—for which he blamed the pressures of secularism and not, incredibly, the arrogance of clericalism. I’m a Catholic, and I don’t know any Catholics, practicing or lapsed, who are ashamed of a faith that showcases values like compassion and redemption. It’s not the faith that’s the source of embarrassment; more likely it’s the actions of the church.

http://ideas.time.com/2012/10/12/empty-pews-everyone-is-misreading-the-new-numbers-of-religiously-unaffiliated/

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Empty Pews: Everyone is Misreading the New Numbers of Religiously “Unaffiliated” (Original Post) rug Oct 2012 OP
Yeah, but how many of them believe in a PERSONAL God? One that intervenes and causes "miracles?" LAGC Oct 2012 #1
That's a very narrow and polar definition of theism. rug Oct 2012 #3
No, it wasn't about declining church attendance muriel_volestrangler Oct 2012 #10
if you have no religious affiliation you have no church attendance. rug Oct 2012 #11
But you may have an affiliation, but not attend church muriel_volestrangler Oct 2012 #12
Where, then, would they affiliate? rug Oct 2012 #13
Think 'lapsed Catholic' muriel_volestrangler Oct 2012 #14
Well, that sounds more like unaffiliated or adrift than affiliation. rug Oct 2012 #15
I attend church, don't believe in God that way unc70 Oct 2012 #4
What does it matter, really? The point is that they don't really want to be classified, so cbayer Oct 2012 #6
To what extent does lack of religious affiliation hurt the revenue stream of said institutions? HereSince1628 Oct 2012 #2
I think mainline churches are hurting financially as a result of this. cbayer Oct 2012 #7
UU is growing? kwassa Oct 2012 #17
That's what they say (link) cbayer Oct 2012 #18
Kind of ironic that those least wanting to be claimed by a team are being fought over cbayer Oct 2012 #5
That might matter if the unaffiliated felt 'fought over' and had to make a decision HereSince1628 Oct 2012 #8
Good point. I was commenting more on the teams who are so desperate to claim them. cbayer Oct 2012 #9
They're young and going to live a long time--they're bright and going to earn a lot of money. dimbear Oct 2012 #16
2/3 believe in god. Only by squinting at a flawed question. Warren Stupidity Oct 2012 #19
It seems to me you're the one squeexing this poll for reassurance. rug Oct 2012 #20

LAGC

(5,330 posts)
1. Yeah, but how many of them believe in a PERSONAL God? One that intervenes and causes "miracles?"
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:48 AM
Oct 2012

That's what they should really be asking in these polls.

I don't think you can count all those who think "God" is simply synonymous with Nature or Everything (like Einstein) versus those who really believe in a thinking God that intervenes and answers prayers, etc.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
3. That's a very narrow and polar definition of theism.
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:55 AM
Oct 2012

It might make an interesting, but limited, poll.

The poll here is an attempt to assess the phenomenon of declining church attendance, not flavors of particular belief.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,336 posts)
10. No, it wasn't about declining church attendance
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 12:51 PM
Oct 2012

It was:

To delve more deeply into the theological, social and political views of the large and growing number of Americans who have no religious affiliation

http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Unaffiliated/NonesOnTheRise-full.pdf


though I would say they didn't delve deeply into theological views - questions such as LAGC suggests, such as "do you believe in an entity that intervenes in the present", should have been part of that. Or "do you believe in an afterlife/reincarnation?".
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
11. if you have no religious affiliation you have no church attendance.
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 01:18 PM
Oct 2012

I daresay the impact of that is far more social and political than theological, particularly since the decline in attendance does not seem to be based primarily on nonbelef in a deity.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,336 posts)
12. But you may have an affiliation, but not attend church
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 01:29 PM
Oct 2012

In any case, the title of the report, and its stated purpose is clear; that's why I quoted it. It is not about declining church attendance. It's an investigation of those with no affiliation.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,336 posts)
14. Think 'lapsed Catholic'
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 03:39 PM
Oct 2012

Or someone who doesn't like the pastor of their church, but hopes they'll leave soon.

unc70

(6,115 posts)
4. I attend church, don't believe in God that way
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 10:14 AM
Oct 2012

My belief is that the nature of God, the will of God us unknowable, but try to follow the teachings of Jesus in my daily life and actively participate in my local congregation. So where would you count me ?

BTW I am a member of the United Methodist Church.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
6. What does it matter, really? The point is that they don't really want to be classified, so
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 10:44 AM
Oct 2012

why try to classify them?

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
2. To what extent does lack of religious affiliation hurt the revenue stream of said institutions?
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:53 AM
Oct 2012

Whether it's buying elaborate sanctuaries, providing salaries and perquisites, or providing assistance to the unfortunate, money is as important to organized religious activity as theistic belief.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
7. I think mainline churches are hurting financially as a result of this.
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 10:46 AM
Oct 2012

But there appears to be growth in two areas, if I have read the data correctly - megachurches and intra-faith institutions like the UU.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
5. Kind of ironic that those least wanting to be claimed by a team are being fought over
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 10:43 AM
Oct 2012

by both sides as some kind of prize.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
8. That might matter if the unaffiliated felt 'fought over' and had to make a decision
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 10:57 AM
Oct 2012

about which side to be on.

But they don't, and they don't.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
9. Good point. I was commenting more on the teams who are so desperate to claim them.
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 10:59 AM
Oct 2012

I think the "nones" could care less.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
16. They're young and going to live a long time--they're bright and going to earn a lot of money.
Fri Oct 12, 2012, 04:36 PM
Oct 2012

Need I say more?

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
19. 2/3 believe in god. Only by squinting at a flawed question.
Sat Oct 13, 2012, 08:57 AM
Oct 2012

Pew also found that more than two-thirds of those people believe in God.


First the question was "believe in god or a Universal spirit", for which the pollster should be taken out and whipped as that is a classic fudge question, blurring the issue in order to push people into the desired bucket.

The question should have been "believe in god" period.

Then the categories provided for an answer were
Yes absolutely
Yes but less certain
No
Other don't know.

Again this is push polling. The categories should be balanced, as for example:
Yes, absolutely
Yes but less certain
No but less certain
No, absolutely
Other don't know

Or more simply:
Yes
Not sure
No



Claiming the 68% who selected yes absolutely or yes but not certain as believers in god is a stretch.
If it gives you some comfort as the smoke and mirrors of religiousity dissipate to cling to some hope that the growing rejection of religion is not what it obviously is, fine.
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