and as these results suggest, many american catholics are quite protestant in their actual faith, but still self-identify as catholic for the tradition.

protestantism is more of a purely faith-identified religion (with comparatively little tradition); in contrast to, say, judaism, which is much more of a tradition/identity-based religion, much less of a faith-based religion.

While many will dispute that, it rings true to me.

Now, if the cardinals would seriously look at these numbers, we might get somewhere, but I am not optimistic about that.

This writer's dictatorial approach to catholics, telling them what they must do is rather off-putting. And the idea that there are no other alternatives and that some kind of secular alternative is what is in order is naive at best.

But the statistics are not surprising and indicative of a real problem that the church should pay attention to.

And I was bemused by this:

Who is this "we" that needs to offer things to Catholics? The friendly atheist?

P.S. Regarding DU text formatting, how do I get those "grey background" quotes that I see everywhere? I just use the "blockquote" button.

Edit: That for the formatting instructions cbayer!

Give it a try!

"And why should we care what cafeteria Catholics think anyway?"

His words.

It'd be interesting to see their opinions and the opinions of others around the world, too.

Here Catholics have always tended to view the church driven more from the bottom up (including local priests and nuns) than a top down, Vatican driven structure. Ironically the large presence of Jesuit led schools has helped foster that view, imo. A view that seems to be increasing in the US.

I personally found this stat interesting - "Sixty-two percent of Catholics said they were in favor of legalizing marriage for same-sex couples. Catholics approved of same-sex marriage at a higher rate than Americans as a whole, among whom 53 percent approved."

Good article, thanks for the post.

(ed for some clarity)

from the bottom up, then why are none of the "majority" views here reflected in changes in official church policy, and in the way they attempt to influence the laws and public policy of another sovereign nation?

And most American Catholics support our basic separation of church and state standards, irregardless of the efforts of the hierarchy to make it otherwise, especially on social issues.

I think it's worth noting that many parishioners see a local parish as a local thing, both religiously and in a social context. And they inevitably reflect the larger social context - this poll reflects that.

The Vatican bureaucracy has a chance in this papal election to make some progress, as incremental as it may be. I'm not holding my breath, though.

American Catholics are deluded about any "change from within" happening as the church is now (and will likely be for the far foreseeable future) organized. It's not a democracy and never has been, and the "majority" views expressed here are essentially meaningless as far as the hierarchy that controls everything of importance is concerned. And yet the poor folk stick around.

John XXIII's papacy was a sea change from within the church, though. (Pun intended) I think many Catholics familiar with that era hope for some revisit to a more ecumenical focus and recognition of the secular concerns of those that see themselves as members of the church. As little as that may seem to others.

"Deluded" seems a hyperbolic appellation for them and "the poor folk" is simply demeaning. They're your neighbors and fellow citizens. Please give them credence for where they're at. Meet them half way if you can. That's where change begins.

Or just plain ignore them and move on.

Catholics who think that "change from within" on church doctrine and policies concerning abortion, birth control, homosexuality and female priests is going to happen if they just stick around and keep throwing money in the plate. I give them exactly the credit they deserve for belonging to and supporting such a sexist, homophobic organization.

And how is "meeting them halfway" going to bring about change in the church? Please. I personally wouldn't give a rat's ass how they spend their Sundays if the RCC they support didn't insist on strong-arming public policy that affects me and people I care about, while they enjoy the benefits of exemptions from the taxes I pay.

politicians. Did you see what happened with the so-called "religious freedom" campaign last summer supported by US bishops and the Vatican? Nothing, or close to nothing. The leadership is completely out of touch with prevailing opinion in the churches. They give marching orders and very few march.

And they are losing members more quickly than any other denomination in the US, which should make you happy.

demanded by the Catholic church didn't actually happen? There was no influencing of politicians going on there at all?

The bishops were unhappy with a compromise offered by Obama on contraception. And, Obama didn't budge beyond that.

makes the point that the Catholic hierarchy does have influence with politicians over secular public policy.

Many from different backgrounds thought the original legislation too strict.

And of course, the RCC has no influence whatsoever on stem cell research policy, or US foreign aid involving family planning, etc., etc.

Show where I have. I never said they were without influence, I said they were losing influence, that their influence had been greatly diminished, which is true.

You exaggerate their influence highly. That's on you.

Now you say they're "losing it". Not the same. Moved goalposts.

actually holds true, then they are still in the process of losing influence and haven't lost it all yet. So show us, please, in what ways they had more influence over politicians and legislation 20 or 30 years ago than they do now. Three or four examples will do. I suspect you won't be able to provide them, since you're pretty much making this up as you go along, and will probably try to dismiss this as "pointless" again. Typical.

That means voting - not church attendance. I don't give a rat's ass how they spend their Sundays, either. As long as religion doesn't equate with legislation, I'm fine with whatever religion anyone ascribes to or doesn't, as the case may be.

The poll cited seems to show run-of-the-mill Catholic support for reasonable legislation. Support for equality. By "meeting them halfway" I meant to lay aside the church issue, which you seem to see as primary, with an alternative. Vote your conscience, vote for equality, vote for all of us.

They're there and you dismiss them.

You miss the point. Or maybe I wasn't clear on mine.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/09/13/survey-suggests-british-catholics-disagree-with-popes-teaching-on-sexuality/

....According to an online YouGov poll of 1,636 Catholics for ITV’s Tonight programme, only 11 per cent believed gay sex was morally wrong, while 41 per cent said that both straight and gay relationships should be celebrated.

A third (30 per cent) said abortion should always be permitted, while 44 per cent said it should be allowed in certain circumstances. Just 11 per cent said it should only be allowed to save the mother’s life and six per cent said it should never be allowed.

Seventy-one per cent thought contraception should be used more often to prevent pregnancy and STDs, while four per cent agreed with the church that it is wrong.

Most (65 per cent) thought priests should be allowed to marry, while 27 per cent said they should remain celibate.

the "Church" is not the laity, it's the clergy. And they do not consider the congregation to be the Church, it is the flock they administer. But the Church is the closed, celibate cult of the Priesthood.

And America is not looked to for guidance, America is a checkbook.

That's how I see it.

The desires of the parishioners is irrelevant to what the Pope and his henchmen want.

. . . and that is what the Life of Christ is about.

Despite a lot of marketing junk that has been attached to rather sketchy, but probable, organic historic facts.

I'm curious, what do you mean by this? What facts?

Hence my question to you. No need to be an ass about it, I meant nothing more than what I asked; what facts are you talking about?

Every so often you read about so-called Republicans who, when questioned, really subscribe to Democratic principles. And yet they hold on to the Republican label as if it were some sort of lifeline to a world that no longer exists. In short, they are Democrats, even if they disdain the label.

With the results of this particular survey - and surveys are, of course, fickle things - we find that some Catholics really don't accept the tenets of the Catholic church. Notwithstanding one's upbringing, it would kind of suggest that they are not in fact Catholic. And, since it's highly unlikely that they are going to change the church from the inside, you have to wonder why they remain Catholic. I'm not dismissing the strength of one familial ties to the church, but it just makes me wonder when you've lost faith in the institution, where do you go for your spiritual sustenance?

Try writing down some complaints in a public letter, say 95 of them.

Nail your letter to your church door.

Walk away.