Religion
Related: About this forumChange of faith: Why young Brits turn from Christianity to Islam
Public mosque services attract thousands of British Muslims, but when you check out a church, there are hardly a dozen participants at Sunday morning worship, RT’s Polly Boiko reports from London.
“The decline of churches in the UK is long term, now it just happens to be approaching rock bottom. So 95 percent of people don’t attend church on an average Sunday. Christian worship is already the concern of a tiny minority of people,” Andrew Copson, chief executive of the British Humanist Association, told RT.
“I think over time even the weak cultural identity that still seems to be associated with Christianity will banish away, probably all over Europe, not just in the UK,” Copson added.
http://rt.com/news/muslims-uk-church-christianity-005/
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muriel_volestrangler
(101,355 posts)This is a load of bollocks. Islam does not 'give security' to people any more than Christianity. Neither 'helps you to survive on the violent streets'. They're not martial arts.
This is bollocks too. These demographers do not exist. The Census count of Muslims went up 1.2 million from 2001 to 2011 (and, being the census, that's the largest possible count of Muslims - if they don't go to mosque or observe Islam in any form but came from a Muslim family, many will still say 'Muslim' as their religion, just like about 60% of Britons say 'Christian'); another 1.2 or even 2 million would not make them the 'dominant religion'.
This is a strange semi-fascist piece advocating the 'total obedience that Islam demands from its followers'. RT sometimes has ulterior motives for posting articles that knock other countries, but I'm amazed at you posting it here without comment.
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)I agree the statement on why more young people are attracted to the Muslim religion may be specious, but the majority of the article provides some interesting trends that are worthy of attention.
The sentence you highlighted on demographers is taken out of context. The article follows with up with statistics from the UK census and Pew Forum
US-based religious think tank the Pew Forum estimates that if the current trend continues, the Muslim population of the UK would swell to almost double within the next 20 years, totaling 5.5 million. So, by 2030 Britain may have more Muslims than Kuwait.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,355 posts)If in 20 years there are 5.5 million Muslims, they still won't be the 'dominant religion' then, let alone in 10 years. There are not 'demographers' making the claim - it would be professionally immoral of them to lie like that.
Seriously, you don't think that an article extolling the virtues of Islam to young people as a way to defend yourself on the mean streets of England, with absolute obedience to the rules, and ending 'turning the other cheek' isn't propaganda? It reads like a call to join the Hitler Youth or Brownshirts.
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)I don't understand why you're singling out the Muslim religion.
Here's another article on the trend that may be more balanced.
Christians and Muslims met in London on Wednesday 17 July 2013 and considered why a significant number of young black Britons are abandoning Christianity in favour of Islam; why some converts are being radicalised; and what Christian churches can do in response.
Speaker Richard Reddie, author of ‘Black Muslims in Britain’ (Lion 2009) explained that the journey from Christianity to Islam amongst British blacks date back to the 1960s, and continues to be an expression of black people’s search for identity and certitude, which converts say they do not find in Eurocentric Christianity; including black churches. As one told Reddie in his research, ‘Islam provided answers to questions I’ve always had; it’s helped me walk a straight path; it’s given my life purpose’. That converts tend to be more zealous is a further challenge to the churches, and the number of converts is growing. ‘Time is not on the Christian church’s side’, Reddie said.
Adverse social conditions such as racism, bad experiences in the Criminal Justice System and deprivation contribute to alienation from society and from churches associated with its value system. Rev Ade Omooba, Co-Chair of NCLF- A Black Christian Voice, together with colleague Fred Williams, said that the recent killing in Woolwich of Drummer Lee Rigby, is symptomatic of common occurrences in other parts of the world, like their own experience in Nigeria. Omooba and Williams told the meeting that these atrocities are a consequence of people being radicalised and losing respect for life. They spoke of church congregations, and community employment / enterprise projects in South London founded on the Christian Gospel which did not see young blacks as good or bad, Christian or Muslim but primarily as ‘human beings’. The place to start, Omooba said, was seeing ‘God in everyone’.
http://www.cte.org.uk/Articles/364457/Churches_Together_in/Working_Together/Minority_Ethnic_Christian/Church_response_to.aspx
muriel_volestrangler
(101,355 posts)saying how good Islam is for an aspiring young militant tired of 'turning the other cheek', wanting to be obedient and a bit of discipline. I don't think it's particularly representative of Islam, especially in Britain. I think RT has a tendency to write articles to be as critical as possible of western countries. But that's what made it so strange that you posted it.
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)than Christianity in the UK. I find that trend interesting and worthy of attention. While the article may contain some elements of propaganda, on the whole, the information it provides is factual. I also believe most DU members have the critical thinking skills to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.
I'm also surprised at your reaction here. I've always respected you as one of the few hosts of this group that are able to discuss the subject of religion objectively.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Critical thinking skills would lead one to reject their premise in its entirety. The information is not factual.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,355 posts)There's a bit about total Christian numbers going down, and Muslim going up, and, as well as continuing immigration, that's because it's already has a younger demographic profile - it has a higher percentage of people young enough to be parents, and (though I don't know if there are proper figures for this) may well have a larger average family size - immigrant communities often do. But the figures for young people converting just aren't there. A couple of anecdotes don't cut it; and even if the other article's talk of black youth converting a bit are true, that is still a relatively small part of the British population.
I think I am being objective about this - I'm calling out some ridiculous writing and untrue claims in the article. Frankly, I wouldn't put it past RT to be attacking 'turn the other cheek' because it wants to be able to say religion should be aggressive - which would give cover to the right wing Orthodox-driven homophobia Russia is currently indulging in. The line of "western churches are weak, unlike the proud Orthodox church" is something I see on an international politics board from some nasty Russian right wingers.
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)Inmates at HMP Whitemoor told researchers commissioned by the Ministry of Justice that they changed their faith for protection or because they were bullied into it.
Prison guards said they had a policy of “appeasement” towards the powerful and growing Islamic population, particularly convicted terrorists who were feared to be recruiting future extremists.
Non-believers avoided confrontation with any Muslim in case it led to retribution from the wider group, and said they even avoided cooking pork or bacon in communal kitchens or undressing in the showers in case it caused offence.
The report, written by researchers at the Cambridge Institute of Criminology, said: “Conflict and tension existed between and within faith groups.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9298578/Prisoners-under-pressure-to-convert-to-Muslim-gang.html
Margin of Terror
LONDON — On most mornings, Brixton — a traditionally Afro-Caribbean neighborhood in south London — echoes with the cries of Christian evangelists, the clapping of sidewalk gospel choirs and hymns blaring from stereos at CD stalls. A newcomer to the area may not guess that this is one of London’s most vibrant Muslim communities: Its Muslim population has quadrupled since the early 1990s, according to several members of the congregation.
“It’s cool to be Muslim in Brixton,” said Abdul Haqq Baker, a former chairman of the Brixton Mosque and Cultural Center, one of the largest communities of converts to Islam in Britain. According to one estimate, one in nine black Christian men in Britain convert to Islam, attracted by the perception that the faith is holistic and the community fraternal. Many young men, in Brixton and elsewhere, converted in prison, where until recently Muslim imams were allowed to proselytize.
This “flight to Islam” among black British youth, as some Christian groups are calling the trend, has raised concerns about their radicalization, especially since May, when a black British-born convert to Islam was accused of murdering a British soldier to avenge the killings of Muslims by Western troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.
http://latitude.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/13/margin-of-terror/
Women & Islam: The rise and rise of the convert.
Record numbers of young, white British women are converting to Islam, yet many are reporting a lack of help as they get used to their new religion, according to several surveys.
As Muslims celebrate the start of the religious holiday of Eid today and hundreds of thousands from around the world converge on Mecca for the haj, it emerged that of the 5,200 Britons who converted to Islam last year, more than half are white and 75 per cent of them women.
In the past 10 years some 100,000 British people have converted to Islam, of whom some three-quarters are women, according to the latest statistics. This is a significant increase on the 60,000 Britons in the previous decade, according to researchers based at Swansea University.
While the number of UK converts accelerates, many of the British women who adopt Islam say they have a daily struggle to assimilate their new beliefs within a wider culture that both implicitly and explicitly positions them as outsiders, regardless of their Western upbringing.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women--islam-the-rise-and-rise-of-the-convert-6258015.html
cbayer
(146,218 posts)The majority of converts are young, white women who are doing it for reasons related to social behaviors. From another article:
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1343954/100-000-Islam-converts-living-UK-White-women-keen-embrace-Muslim-faith.html#ixzz2fGfPelSe
They don't mention it, but I would wonder how many of these women are converting because they marry a Muslim male.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,355 posts)which, in a population of over 60 million, won't change the overall figures much, but is enough for cultural significance, I suppose (though while that's an increase of 60,000 from the previous decade, 5,200 in the last year may indicate a slow-down).
cbayer
(146,218 posts)My daughter recently married a Muslim and converted. She didn't really convert, though, she did it for him and his family. It was a very, very big deal to the family.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,355 posts)but I really don't know enough Muslims to be able to say.
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)not that they will be a majority of the total population of 60 million.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,355 posts)Census figures: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20677321
2001: Christian 37.3m, No religion 7.7m, Muslim 1.5m
2011: Christian 33.2m, No religion 14.1m, Muslim 2.7m
'No religion' actually grew at a faster rate than Islam, and with a far greater increase in numbers. But no demographer would take trends like this and say "this group will outnumber that" when such a large change would have to happen, unless you have a model that you can justify reflects reality of how religions, if any, are chosen or changed in the population. You can't, for instance, credibly say it's just "each group adds or subtracts the same number each year" (although something as simplistic as that would still take over 50 years for Muslims to outnumber Christians, not the decade the OP article thought of). Reality includes changing birth rates, immigration, people leaving religions and joining them. And the Independent article shows that conversion is at a low rate; the RT article says 600,000 (half in the increase in Muslim numbers) came from new immigrants, but hardly anyone thinks immigration will stay at the rate of the last decade.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)This is a change in the overall demographics of the country, imo.
But then RT is not known for it's sterling journalism.
