suffer the little children to come unto me.

thanks to a substandard catholic convent education. The thing that Christ stressed repeatedly, according to my shaky memory, is to embrace all those who wish to follow his teachings.

This guy needs to lose his tax exempt status as a religious organization as he is no christian.

This is very bad publicity.

After all, they aren't Xian either.

"Judge, that ye be not judged--for if the measure you judge by is harsh, the measure you shall be judged by will be light."

DU 13:23


X stressed many things repeatedly. But in some cases--as with the woman at the well--inclusion wasn't necessarily part it. A personal exception is not a blanket exception.

I also suspect many would accuse him of excluding the Pharisees and rich, unless those groups met their preconditions.

Embracing everybody who would follow Jesus' teachings is more of a Pauline thing. Apostle to the gentiles and all that. Whenever Jesus ran up against an "Other" he was sympathetic but always compared them against Israel--to Israel's shame or benefit.

"Even so, it is not the will of your Father in Heaven that one of these little ones should perish." Matthew 18:14

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And the second, which is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Matthew 22:37-39

"When the Son of Man comes in all his glory...All the nations will be gathered before him...He will say to the sheep on his right, Come, ye beloved of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you...For I was hungered and you gave me meat; I was thirsty, and you gave me drink;...a stranger, and you took me in;...naked, and you clothed me; ...sick, and you visited me;...in prison, and you came to me....Insamuch as you did it unto one of the least of these my brethren, you did it unto me." Matthew 25:31-36

"Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in my name." Matthew 28:19

"He that is not against us is with us." Luke 9:50

"God is a spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

These are all quotations from Jesus.

local custom might have had her stoned for it, had not Joseph suddenly changed his mind about what would be "the right thing to do"

to attack such traditional social notions as the importance of being born into the right family

That is so mindless it's hard to know how to mock it. The pastor knows through his faith that he ought not welcome this child.

Probably reluctantly but guided by his faith he harms the child.

And yet ......... faith is not to blame.

Right.

If the RCC hadn't despicably scared this woman to death that her baby would go to hell or something else horrible if some priest didn't splash water on his head and mumble some meaningless words. That's the sickness underlying this, that no one will talk about. Instead, the pope gets some sort of brownie points for saving this woman and her child from....nothing...other than a phony need manufactured by the church.

So I'm not sure how you conclude the RCC "despicably scared" Charity Grace "that her baby would go to hell" or that "the pope gets some sort of brownie points for saving this woman and her child"

I'm talking about the single mothers YOU referenced in your posts 10 and 11. Obvious to anyone not trying lamely to distract from the real point.

reference anyone in particular but was rather a generic rebuke to some clergy in his archdiocese

#11 is a more recent story, but the facts there bear no relation whatsoever to your comments in #12

Both were provided as a response to the misrepresentation in #9 of Winans' attitude as standard Christian faith

Of course, no one here is obliged to like Christianity in general, or Catholicism in particular, or to have much interest in either. However, there's no real upside I can see to misrepresenting other people's beliefs or the facts about stories illustrating those beliefs

It was, nevertheless, Winan's faith which informed his decision. The Bronze Age book he holds to be the literal word of God says people who have children out of wedlock and divorcees are sinners; he certainly didn't reason himself into the position.

Regardless of what the RCC says--or that matter, most Christians--this man's faith, in particular, very much is to blame here.

OK. I see where all the misunderstanding comes from. Humor me and look again. Nowhere do I suggest that this horror is any such thing.

What is at fault is his private faith, which is evidently gravely unfortunate. The less it spreads the better.

Last edited Sun Oct 20, 2013, 10:08 AM - Edit history (1)

Here's a quote from the story:

When Romero shared her fears of baptizing her baby because she was divorced and a single mother, the Holy Father assured her that he would be her spiritual father, and even voiced his willingness to baptize the baby himself ...

And here is my comment:

Of course, none of this should matter if the RCC hadn't despicably scared this woman to death that her baby would go to hell or something else horrible if some priest didn't splash water on his head and mumble some meaningless words. That's the sickness underlying this, that no one will talk about. Instead, the pope gets some sort of brownie points for saving this woman and her child from....nothing...other than a phony need manufactured by the church.

And you're claiming the one has NOTHING to do with the other. Maybe if I'd said " She should have just eaten the Nutella on her banana and not complained", your claim might have some basis in reality. But this? Just wow.

And of course, you've rather conspicuously dodged the real point, which is that people's hysterical fears about needing to get their children baptized, lest something terrible happen to them in real life, are groundless, and have been despicably fed by the Catholic Church for many centuries. Charity Grace is part of the same problem, created by the RCC, even if she's not Catholic.

You were doing so well.

He just wants to sneer at religion.

I think the point being made is more general, as to why someone thinks their baby needs this ritual so badly that they would wander from church to church in the first place.

to be disinterested in Christianity and its traditions -- or even to oppose it, if that is to your taste

If you don't want to talk about it, that's your prerogative. I'm certainly interested in Christianity though from multiple perspectives as it's a big part of who I am today. If I were disinterested I wouldn't have said anything at all :-P

on the Roman Catholic church: in #13, to which you responded, I merely pointed out that Winans was not Catholic, and the mother whose child Winans refused to baptize didn't seem to be Catholic either

Although I'm not Catholic myself, I object to Catholic-bashing in this forum. That's not the same as thinking it would be in any way worthwhile to indulge your so-called "interest" in Christianity by discussing with you the "question" you asked in your #33: namely, Why would someone think their baby needs this ritual so badly that they would wander from church to church?

IMO your claim to want "discussion" is nothing but bottom-dragging in hopes you'll get some reaction that somehow gratifies you

And then you disparage someone who else mentioned the Catholic Church? Oy.

To point out that the RCC is the force responsible for instilling the "need" for baptism, and the fear that something bad will happen if you don't get baptized, throughout Western Christianity? Whether or not someone is Catholic, that tradition stems from the Roman church.

So what's YOUR opinion on what will happen to a person if they aren't baptized? Not that I expect anything resembling a straight answer, but I'm sure the room will find whatever dodge you come up with amusing.

Who could possibly fail to be interested in that?

Seizing any opportunity to avoid expressing an actual opinion or belief about the subject at hand. Do you even have one that you're not embarrassed to state in public?

Catholic News Agency
10.09.2013

... Anna Romero, a 35-year-old woman from central Italy, was on vacation when she received a phone call from the Pope. She had written the pontiff earlier this summer, describing her anguish at discovering that she had become pregnant by a man who – unknown to her at the time – was already married ...

Romero described her situation in a letter to the Pope ...

Romero said that when the call came in, she knew the number was from Rome because of the city's dial code, and that she recognized the Pope's voice as soon as he started speaking ...

When Romero shared her fears of baptizing her baby because she was divorced and a single mother, the Holy Father assured her that he would be her spiritual father, and even voiced his willingness to baptize the baby himself ...

http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/news/pope-calls-single-mother-offers-to-baptize-her-child-3660004

Mom was a Presbyterian, so he told my dad that he couldn't, and that me, and my mom would be going to hell.

Dad told him he'd be seeing HIM in hell, and never went back into a church again.


Very fortunate, for me.

Some church people feel, incorrectly, I believe, that including this mother and child would give give an okay to the actions that brought the little one into being.
So they feel it's better to ostracize them.
They're wrong, of course.

likely though not certainly illegitimate. He certainly had an illegitimate son. Constantine is often counted as the third most important Christian of all time. The pastor in question undoubtedly repeats words sanctioned by him every Sunday.
We need to carefully evaluate Constantine's character, (that's a useful exercise) but his birth shouldn't enter into the discussion.

that this pastor "repeats words sanctioned by Constantine every Sunday," since fundamentalist and pentecostal churches do not normally recite the Nicene Creed in their services.

"Baby dedication," just for the record, is not baptism. It's a fairly recent practice among congregations that do not practice infant baptism.

It is actually a set of books, with lots of stories and sages quoted, and a lot of assumed context which is very confusing to us who were not there. Again and again, however, these writers stress that ALL of us make mistakes, say and do bad things to others, and that NONE of us has the right to look down on other people or to consider ourselves more righteous than they are, that all our pretensions of of righteousness look like filthy rags to our Creator, who sees not only our outward appearance but also our inward hearts. I am no Biblical scholar, but I have noticed that the Jewish prophets would be thundering about God's wrath on abominations, and then it would usually turn out they were talking about snobbery, injustice, oppression, pollution of public water, bribery, and failure to help people in trouble. Ezekiel said, "This is the sin of Sodom....pride, excess of food and prosperous ease but did not aid the poor and the needy." (Ezekiel 16:49). Jesus said, whoever loves much gets forgiven for much. Whenever he dealt with anyone who had broken sexual mores (which was not just once), he was gentle and somewhat ironical, almost as if restraining a chuckle. Oh, and much of what he said was honestly quoted from the Jewish scriptures, often while discussing these scriptures with other Jews who had read them.

RANDOM THOUGHT: “Church People” can be so judgmental, literally and hypocritically. Our job is not to condemn, rather let the Holy Spirit convict. Condemnation equates to criticism. Conviction is what will lead to correction, thus formulating change. We need to allow the Holy Spirit to do his job.

Side Note: Godly rebuke is not judgmental…

The above is a status that I posted yesterday on Facebook. It precisely pertains to this situation. Pastor Winans is not judging the lady by having a baby out of wedlock. He is merely rebuking her. To rebuke means to have an expression of strong disapproval, to reprimand or to correct. The bible says, “Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear” (1 Timothy 5:20 KJV).

The young lady was NOT denied a blessing for her child. She was told that the Pastor is unable to bless the child in front of the congregation due to her child being conceived out of wedlock, which is a sin. I believe the overall message that Pastor Winans was trying to make is in accordance to the above scripture. We will bless you in private because we don’t want to allow others to believe that it is acceptable to have children out of wedlock.

We are not to bring what is deemed the norm in society as tolerable in the church. God’s divine order under the marriage covenant is: Husband (man) and Wife (woman) procreate and have children (Genesis 1:27-28). The unwed mother was out of the will of God. So, Pastor Winans was correct in his rebuke.

Yes, ALL children are a blessing. They are a gift from God. However, the church needs to set an example of how God originally intended a family to be structured. I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT like the judgmental hypocrisy of some believers. I abhor it! But this situation is clearly correction and not judgment.

The church has to take a stand for holiness. We can’t expect the church to patty-cake our wrong doings. There must be accountability for our actions. The church’s viewpoint has to be what the word of God says and not what we think it should be or based upon our emotional senses.

and kindness of Jesus Christ then sitting in judgement and quoting the rules to people. I think the Holy Spirit would not be pleased with the pastor for his actions.

That's cute.

... did a father claim him and help raise him up. Otherwise, there's little doubt Mary would have been shunned.

I know Jesus was a special case, but Matthew 25:40 says "And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’" I do not believe in punishing children for the sins of their parents, and it may not seem like much of a punishment. But if this child were to grow up in this church, his classmates in Sunday School would have those pictures of that day, and he would not. What other things might he be excluded from in the name of Godly rebuke of his mother? Will that allow a child to grow up secure in the love of his church home?

Sadly, we will never know, as the actions of this pastor have driven her and her son from the congregation. I hope they are able to find a church home that welcomes them and accepts her son for what he is -- a child of God.

Welcome to DU!

A judgement must precede disapproval, reprimand, or correction.