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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:15 AM Feb 2013

So...the Pope is resigning...did any of YOU guys know this was coming?

Just wondering if there were any hints that this was possible in the homilies at Sunday Mass.

Also...reactions...I'm sure you'll have 'em.

Anybody know when the last time a Pontiff just said "I'm outta here" like that?

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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So...the Pope is resigning...did any of YOU guys know this was coming? (Original Post) Ken Burch Feb 2013 OP
Last one to resign, Gregory XII in 1415. CurtEastPoint Feb 2013 #1
And that was an era of competing popes...the rival Pontiff was(weirdly enough)Benedict XIII Ken Burch Feb 2013 #2
I am picturing two pontiffs in the ring, duking (or poping) it out. LOL! CurtEastPoint Feb 2013 #3
At one point, there were three claimants to the papacy. Fortinbras Armstrong Feb 2013 #5
Ah! I see a revival of Celebrity Death Match! mykpart Feb 2013 #14
Not even a bit of post-Mass gossip. CBHagman Feb 2013 #4
No, this was a decision made by him alone with a small inner circle. rug Feb 2013 #6
I thought it was a joke at first 47of74 Feb 2013 #7
Malachy Prophecies bananas Feb 2013 #8
So if the next Pope is Italian and his name Kingofalldems Feb 2013 #11
No LeftInTX Feb 2013 #9
I am wondering about the timing myself - hedgehog Feb 2013 #10
I'm glad that Law has no part in the next conclave 47of74 Feb 2013 #12
He is 88, I think. demosincebirth Feb 2013 #13
Nope, 81. 47of74 Feb 2013 #16
Nope, we're both wrong. demosincebirth Feb 2013 #18
I was talking about Cardinal Law 47of74 Feb 2013 #19
I remember when he was elected. mykpart Feb 2013 #15
Didn't see this coming. Brigid Feb 2013 #17
Pope Guy Tor_Hershman Feb 2013 #20
Surprised! TommyCelt Feb 2013 #21
Welcome to the Catholicism & Orthodox Christianity Group. No Vested Interest Feb 2013 #22
I was completely shocked; I did not see this coming. Pterodactyl Feb 2013 #23

CurtEastPoint

(18,656 posts)
1. Last one to resign, Gregory XII in 1415.
Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:38 AM
Feb 2013

Been a while.

This is good news. Hopefully the new pope will begin to right the wrongs.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
2. And that was an era of competing popes...the rival Pontiff was(weirdly enough)Benedict XIII
Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:54 AM
Feb 2013

(THAT Benedict is now considered an antipope).

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
5. At one point, there were three claimants to the papacy.
Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:32 AM
Feb 2013

To understand it, we should start with the Avignon Papacy. The Avignon Papacy grew out of a fight that Pope Boniface VIII (reigned 1294-1303) was having with Philip IV of France (reigned 1285-1314) over money and power. To make a long and involved story short, Boniface lost. He was surprised by an army which took him prisoner, beat him severely and threatened him with execution. He died a month after this.

Boniface was succeeded by Pope Benedict XI, but Benedict died soon after his election (some say he was poisoned by the French). There followed an interregnum of nearly a year in which the cardinals and were evenly split between two candidates, one pro-Phillip, the other anti-Phillip. A French bishop, Bertrand de Goth, was finally elected as Clement V. Clement could not be called a French puppet, but he was certainly in the French orbit.

Clement chose Lyon for his coronation in November 1305, with Philip IV in attendance. One of his first acts was to create nine French cardinals.

In 1309, citing civil unrest in Rome -- the Basilica of St John Lateran, which is the cathedral of the Pope as Bishop of Rome, had been burnt in a riot -- Clement went to Avignon. Avignon was not French territory at the time (its ownership was disputed between the Pope and the King of Sicily), but it was surrounded by France. Now, it should be pointed out that having the Pope outside Rome was not unusual. For example, when Boniface was taken in 1303, he was in Anagni. However, what Clement did that was new was to move the papal bureaucracy, the Curia, to Avignon.

Clement was not one of the papal giants. He was primarily interested in rich living. To live well, of course, one needs money. Clement, and, even more, his successor, John XXII (reigned 1316-1334) were masters at raising funds. Simply put, everything was for sale: Bishoprics, cardinal's hats, abbacies, indulgences. John required every holder of a clerical office pay annates -- a tenth of all clerical income -- as well as the entire first year's income from any new office. Of course, the office holder had to support himself while paying this, so he would put the squeeze on those below him. Chaucer's Pardoner was an example of the worst sort of simony -- a priest selling absolution from sin.

I will pass over most of the other French popes who reigned in Avignon. One I should mention is Clement VI, formerly Archbishop of Rouen. He was so partisan in his support of French interests that he helped pay for some of Phillip IV's wars.

Finally Gregory XI (reigned 1370-1378) decided that the Pope should move back to Rome. After all, exactly one of the Avignon popes had seen the city since Clement V had left, and Urban V had stayed less than three years before returning to Avignon. There was major unrest in Italy and the Pope was in serious danger of losing political control in Italy unless he took a more direct hand in its politics. (Florence had been excommunicated in toto, and the Florentines not only stopped paying money to the Pope but also siezed any papal money going through Tuscany.) Catherine of Sienna, a genuinely saintly woman who had considerable influence in the Italian Church, repeatedly called for the return of the Pope to Rome.

Just about the first thing Gregory did when he got to Rome was die. The cardinals who accompanied Gregory to Rome, bowing to the requests of the Roman populace (generally expressed in the form of an angry mob clamoring outside the walls of the Vatican) for an Italian Pope, elected the Archbishop of Bari as Urban VI.

The French weren't happy with either the move back to Rome or to an Italian Pope. Five months after Urban's election, some French cardinals met in a town controlled by one of Urban's enemies and, claiming that they had been cowed by the mob into electing an Italian, elected Robert of Geneva as Clement VII. France, Scotland, Castile, Aragon, Navarre, Portugal, Savoy, Denmark, Norway, and parts of Germany acknowledged Clement.

Urban, who had made himself thoroughly unpopular through his arrogance and irascibility, was forced to flee to Nocera, from which he issued fulminations against Clement and Clement's strongest supporter, Charles II of Hungary (who was also King of Naples). Urban later went to Genoa and while leading an army towards Naples in 1389, fell off a mule with fatal results. He was succeeded by Piero Tomacelli who took the name Boniface IX. Boniface eventually regained control of Rome, but found it convenient to spend long periods of time in Umbria.

Clement quickly ran into problems with the Roman mob, and decided it was best to retreat to Avignon, where he spent the rest of his career practicing simony and selling papal land to support himself. He died in 1394 and was succeeded by the Spaniard Pedro de Luna as Benedict XIII.

Benedict, who was a genuinely good man, tried to reform the papal administration as best he could and cut back drastically on the simony. The result of this was that many of his cardinals and staff (and the King of France) withdrew their support. A French army occupied Avignon in 1398 and beseiged the papal palace. The seige ended in March 1403,when Benedict escaped to Anjou. After the seige was lifted, Benedict returned to Avignon.

No one was happy with two rival claimants to the papacy, each with claims which could be supported on some grounds and denied on others. So, Benedict attempted to open negotiations with the Roman pope, Boniface IX, about resolving the mess. Boniface's response was that Benedict should resign, admit Boniface's claim and retire to a monastery to do penance. Boniface died in 1404, and his successor, Innocent VII, was the first to make the suggestion that both popes should resign to make way for a man with an unsullied claim. Benedict balked at this and nothing came of it at that time. Innocent really didn't mean it either. Meanwhile, some theologians, particularly in Paris, were theorizing that popes were subject to ecumenical councils. This theory is called Conciliarism.

Innocent died suddenly in 1406 (the usual suspicions of foul play quickly arose). His successor, Gregory XII, was elected with the understanding that if his rival in Avignon resigned, he would do so as well. Gregory also promised not to name any additional cardinals, a promise he promptly broke.

In 1409, a group of cardinals, under murky circumstances, convened a council in Pisa to which both popes were invited. Neither came. This council declared both Boniface and Benedict deposed and elected their own man as Alexander V. Few took Alexander seriously, and he died in 1410. He was succeeded by Baldassare Cossa, who took the name John XXIII (not to be confused with the 20th century pope of the same name).

John called another council at Constance in 1415. Gregory, who was in poor health and by this time anxious to heal the split, acknowledged this council. When the council suggested that both John and Gregory abdicate, they each did. The council then elected Odo Colonna as Martin V.

Abdication was also suggested to Benedict, but he rejected it. By that time, however, just about everyone rejected Benedict, who fled to a castle in Valencia, where he died, excommunicate, alone and forgotten in 1423. Two of his small band of followers each proclaimed himself pope but one of them eventually submitted to Martin, who gave him a bishopric, and the other went into hiding near Tolouse. The former John XXII became Archbishop of Florence and Gregory died quietly in the Marche two years after he resigned.

CBHagman

(16,987 posts)
4. Not even a bit of post-Mass gossip.
Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:35 AM
Feb 2013

I'm friends with one priest, follow another on Facebook, and know a few others, but no one I know, clergy or laity, has so much as speculated on this.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
6. No, this was a decision made by him alone with a small inner circle.
Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:04 AM
Feb 2013

For all the snark about red shoes and palaces, his schedule would tax a man thirty years younger.

Not counting the resignations in the fifteenth century to end the political western schism, the last Pope to resign was Pope Saint Celestine V who lived his last years as a hermit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_V

 

47of74

(18,470 posts)
7. I thought it was a joke at first
Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:29 AM
Feb 2013

Usually the Pope hangs on until the bitter end so it was a surprise. I first heard it and I thought it was some sort of joke. I had to head to the Googles to confirm it.

Hopefully the next guy will do better, but I'm not holding my breath.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
8. Malachy Prophecies
Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:32 AM
Feb 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes

The Prophecy of the Popes, attributed to Saint Malachy, is a list of 112 short phrases in Latin. They purport to describe each of the Roman Catholic popes (along with a few anti-popes), beginning with Pope Celestine II (elected in 1143) and concluding with the successor of current pope Benedict XVI, a pope described in the prophecy as "Peter the Roman", whose pontificate will end in the destruction of the city of Rome.

LeftInTX

(25,490 posts)
9. No
Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:47 PM
Feb 2013

The timing of this is very suspect, to me...

If it is health, why during Lent?
He can't be that sick

If he wants to go out quietly, Ordinary Time is preferred.
If I am correct, Ordinary Time begins after Pentecost.

Even John Paul II hung on till after Easter.

This means they will be selecting a pope during Lent.
The church used to forbid marriage ceremonies during Lent, and they still discourage it.

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
10. I am wondering about the timing myself -
Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:27 PM
Feb 2013

I have to figure a small group is behind this and has already selected the next Pope. The question is, why now? What is going to change between now and Pentecost that they decided to move today? Even if Benedict is in such poor health he is likely to die before Easter, that would not be a reason to move the conclave forward.

It's unfortunate that discussions of this event involve looking for conspiracies and secrets, but that's what happens when the government of the Church follows the model of a Renaissance court!

BTW - Dolan is clearly not an insider on this one:

http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50768373#50768373

 

47of74

(18,470 posts)
12. I'm glad that Law has no part in the next conclave
Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:26 AM
Feb 2013

He's 81 so he won't be voting in this one.

 

47of74

(18,470 posts)
19. I was talking about Cardinal Law
Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:33 PM
Feb 2013

Bernard Cardinal Law was born on November 4, 1931, making him just over 81 years old.

mykpart

(3,879 posts)
15. I remember when he was elected.
Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:01 AM
Feb 2013

Word then was that he was chosen in part because of his advanced age. The Cardinals had never supposed that John Paul would reign as many years as he did, and they wanted to make sure that didn't happen again. Not reallly sure I understand that logic. Anyway, it seems ironic that his age is the reason he gives for abdicating. Also I see a parallel between all the cardinals he has appointed and FDR packing the supreme court. And the conclave seems to me to be much more political than spiritual, which is a shame, so the chances of getting a more progressive pontiff this time are pretty slim. That said, I still believe firmly in the power of prayer and the action of the Holy Spirit, so I encourage everyone to pray for a wise and true pope.

Brigid

(17,621 posts)
17. Didn't see this coming.
Tue Feb 12, 2013, 10:28 PM
Feb 2013

But at least the Pope had the wisdom to understand that if he is no longer able to carry out the duties of his office, it is time to step down.

 

Tor_Hershman

(19 posts)
20. Pope Guy
Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:41 PM
Feb 2013

My sources tell me that after the Pope opened his official YouTube channel, he saw this video
" target="_blank">


and it inspired him to consider retirement.

TommyCelt

(838 posts)
21. Surprised!
Thu Feb 21, 2013, 03:07 PM
Feb 2013

Especially after John Paul II's extended health decline. If Benedict can't handle the job any longer it's better that he steps down. There had been rumblings in the Italian press that B16 was in the early stages of Alzheimer's (no link, sorry); if that is true it is FAR better he's stepping down. Canon law precludes retirement from a Pope if he is not of sound mind (I wonder if that had anything to do with JPII staying on....)

Anyway, I find the sede vacante and conclave an extraordinarily exciting time. The fact we don't have to mourn a deceased Holy Father makes it even better this time around. I am NO fan of Benedict, make no mistake...but he's the Pope nonetheless. Soon to be Cardinal emeritus Joseph Ratzinger once again.

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