I'm here to gain some understanding on what is considered to be anti-Semitic
Hello. Behind the Aegis suggested that I visit.
You may have seen this thread/poll I'd posted in GD "Is blatant anti-Semitism rampant here at DU?": http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025326652
The question was based on this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5326529
Behind the Aegis and I exchanged some posts over this particular set of posts (B.T.A. posted excerpts - I believe the actual original post was hidden)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025326652#post129
No, Israel has been run for most of its history by very conservative Jews who, quite honestly, want to do to the Palestinians or maybe even all the Arabs, what Hitler tried to do to them. They claim that is not the case but it is.
I have no time for Israel. I want it dismantled and the Jews sent somewhere but here. Israel is dead to me.
So for me now I am for terminating all U.S. aid for Israel in any form. Let the Israelis pay for their own weapons and security without sugar daddy/bitch America footing the bill. Further I am for a U.N. plan to dismantle Israel and give the land back to the Palestinians. I'm sure the Jews won't mind living in camps for 30 or 40 years like they did to the Palestinians after the U.N. gave them Israel as a consolation prize for the holocaust.
Or is the above "Criticism of Israel's military policy "?
I responded with this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025326652#post150
No, Israel has been run for most of its history by very conservative Jews
I'm not certain I'd characterize all of the Prime Ministers of Israel as "conservative". AFAIK, they are all adherents to the Jewish faith --is that a fair statement?
who, quite honestly, want to do to the Palestinians or maybe even all the Arabs, what Hitler tried to do to them.
This seems to be the crux of the problem. Those supporting Israel get very upset with the comparison of the current Palestinian policy to the policies of the Nazi's. I suppose my question to you would be this: do you see that a statement of prejudice against Jews generally (which is what I would consider to be anti-Semitism), a statement against the existence of Israel (anti-Zionism), or a statement against the policies of the Netanyahu administration?
I have no time for Israel. I want it dismantled and the Jews sent somewhere but here. Israel is dead to me.
Again: do you see that a statement of prejudice against Jews generally (which is what I would consider to be anti-Semitism), a statement against the existence of Israel (anti-Zionism), or a statement against the policies of the Netanyahu administration?
So for me now I am for terminating all U.S. aid for Israel in any form. Let the Israelis pay for their own weapons and security without sugar daddy/bitch America footing the bill.
Personally, I see that as a criticism of US policy toward Israel. You may see that differently, and I invite your comment.
Further I am for a U.N. plan to dismantle Israel and give the land back to the Palestinians.
I see this as a statement against the existence of Israel (anti-Zionism). Again, you may see that differently, and I invite your comment.
I'm sure the Jews won't mind living in camps for 30 or 40 years like they did to the Palestinians after the U.N. gave them Israel as a consolation prize for the holocaust.
I suppose that a better choice of words would have been "I'm sure the Israelis won't mind living in camps for 30 or 40 years like they did to the Palestinians after the U.N. gave them Israel as a consolation prize for the holocaust." My more general observation is that two wrongs don't make a right, and that an eye for an eye makes the world blind. There are some clichés, yes?
I believe that both of the posts you cite were hidden by juries. Is that correct?
B.T.A. then responded "Do you not see those comments as anti-Semitic? yes or no, or give your caveats." http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025326652#post150
And then I responded pretty similarly to my previous post.
No, Israel has been run for most of its history by very conservative Jews
I see that as, more or less, a statement of fact. Albeit a poorly worded one. Israel, a nation that self-identifies as "the Jewish state" is governed (run, if you will) by adherents to the Jewish faith.
who, quite honestly, want to do to the Palestinians or maybe even all the Arabs, what Hitler tried to do to them.
My view is that this statement is a statement against the policies of the nation of Israel and their policies toward Palestinian residents. I do not see this as an attack on practitioners of the Jewish faith.
I have no time for Israel. I want it dismantled and the Jews sent somewhere but here. Israel is dead to me.
I see this statement as anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic, and anti-immigrant. Not necessarily in that order.
So for me now I am for terminating all U.S. aid for Israel in any form. Let the Israelis pay for their own weapons and security without sugar daddy/bitch America footing the bill.
I see that as a statement about US foreign policy. I could make that same statement about any US ally or client state. "So for me now I am for terminating all U.S. aid for Canada in any form. Let the Canadians pay for their own weapons and security without sugar daddy/bitch America footing the bill"
Further I am for a U.N. plan to dismantle Israel and give the land back to the Palestinians.
I see this statement as being anti-Zionist/anti-Israel, and not necessarily aimed at adherents of the Jewish faith.
I'm sure the Jews won't mind living in camps for 30 or 40 years like they did to the Palestinians after the U.N. gave them Israel as a consolation prize for the holocaust.
As phrased, I'd agree that this is anti-Semitic. I believe the intent of the statement was "Let's do to the Israelis what's been done to the Palestinians and see how they like it." While statements like that may be emotionally satisfying, they help no one.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025326652#post151
Please note that I did not make the original comments B.T.A. cited.
I'm here today seeling understanding -- ground rules, if you will -- on how to discuss this issue without saying things that are perceived as hateful or bigoted. As I wrote to B.T.A.: I am not a current member of any organized faith. I have family (Jordanian/American) living in what was Jordan prior to the six-day war, and is now the West Bank. I have many close friends who are Jewish, and their opinions on this run the full spectrum (support of Netanyahu to opposition to Netanyahu). I have many conservative Christian relatives who fully support the actions of Israel in Gaza. My Facebook news feed is.... interesting. My personal view: the US should shut up and stay the Hell out of this.
= new reply since forum marked as read
It's probably best to start with a definition.
[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Anti-Semitism[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious or racial group. wikipedia
That is the most straightforward definition. However, the real issues come, not from the definition (well, it does for some, but I will address that later) of the word, but the interpretation of the term. The US Department of State defines anti-Semitism as:
[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Anti-Semitism[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities." --Working Definition of Anti-Semitism by the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia
They go even further to describe instances of anti-Semitism:
Contemporary Examples of Anti-Semitism
- Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews (often in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion).
- Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as a collective—especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
- Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, the state of Israel, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
- Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
- Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interest of their own nations.
But, given recent events, this should also be included:
[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]What is Anti-Semitism Relative to Israel?
[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]EXAMPLES of the ways in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel, taking into account the overall context could include:
DEMONIZE ISRAEL:
- Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism to characterize Israel or Israelis
- Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis
- Blaming Israel for all inter-religious or political tensions
DOUBLE STANDARD FOR ISRAEL:
- Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
- Multilateral organizations focusing on Israel only for peace or human rights investigations
DELEGITIMIZE ISRAEL:
- Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and denying Israel the right to exist
The above should adequately address many of the questions from your two pervious posts in the other thread. There are, of course, other examples, not just the ones in the posts I originally provided (and yes, those posts were surprisingly hidden and that member finally banned). Claiming Israel, its leaders, people are responsible for anti-Semitism, is also a form of anti-Semitism because it places the blame on the wrong people. It is a form of blaming the victim by conflating Israel and Jews. Jews are being attacked around the world, while people claim it is in reaction to the recent conflict, and while it may be true, it doesn't change the fact the attacks are anti-Semitic in nature and are repellant. If someone calls a black person a nasty racial epithet or attacks/beats/murders a black person, it isn't "excusable" because the person (or a family member) was the victim of a violent crime committed by another African-American person.
As the other statement in the US State Department says:
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.
I would even be as adventurous as to say, that the majority of criticism of Israel isn't anti-Semitic, but there is quite a bit out there and there is enough anti-Semitism affecting everyday Jews as to be a real problem.
Oh, and I almost forgot, to claim anti-Semitism is discrimination "against Semites" (or "Arabs are Semites too, so they are the real victims"
is naïve at best, and disingenuous and ignorant/stupid/bigoted (or a combination therein) and parallels to "reverse racism" charges or claims that homophobia isn't really discrimination against gay people because the term really means "fear of sameness."
(Hopefully I got in under the wire...just lost power! Thank G-d for back up units!"
Take your time. You can ask other questions if need be, but I tried to be as detailed without writing a tome. As I said, in most cases, it isn't about the definition of the word, but rather its interpretation and application.
I will suggest this, go through as many posts in GD about Israel in the past week; do a specific search for Israel in the title of the OP, and then read the thread and count what you consider "accusations of anti-Semitism" and "pre-emptive accusations of anti-Semitism." Take this thread as an example: Israeli High Court: Israeli Soldiers Used Palestinians as Human Shields 1,200 Times - WashingtonBlog vs. this thread "A Hideous Atrocity": Noam Chomsky on Israel’s Assault on Gaza & U.S. Support for the Occupation (you may recognize that one. ).
It will be labor intensive, but I am pretty certain you will find, more often than not, people are accusing others of claiming anti-Semitism happens MUCH more than people/articles actually being called/claimed to be anti-Semitic.
