Jewish Group
Related: About this forumWe Can No Longer Stay Silent on Anti-Semitism
THIS IS THE JEWISH GROUP!When is anti-Semitism not anti-Semitism? When its Jewish paranoia, is one answer. When its criticism of Israel, is another. The All-Party Parliamentary Enquiry into anti-Semitism published last week in the U.K. will be welcomed by many British Jews. The very fact that so high-level an enquiry was instituted in the first place confirms that the problem doesnt exist only in their minds.
To call out anti-Semitism, unless blood has been spilt, is a hazardous enterprise in Britain. It draws the accusation of hypersensitivity. It attracts the opprobrium of other Jews who view themselves as less hysterical, and who consider it crying wolf or an attempt to silence fair criticism of Israel. And it plays to fears that lie buried deep in the British-Jewish psyche that to complain is to be ungrateful and, worse, that its only effect will be to call attention to a minority that has thrived by cultivating near-invisibility. Keep shtum was my fathers advice to me when I was growing up in Manchester in the 1950s. Dont go in fear, but dont be too conspicuous either.
Yet among the enquirys findings is that hate crimes against Jews in Britain have doubled in the past decade. This confirms what some Jews fear and others have experienced, but that many will dismiss as insignificant. What constitutes a hate crime? Should we grant as much significance to a placard saying Hitler was right or Death to Jews as we do to a physical assault on a rabbi or a yeshiva boy? The abuse of Jews in social media might be on the increase, but so is abuse of everybody. Is the All-Parliamentary Enquiry crying wolf on our behalf?
If I characterize this as a debate among Jews, it is also a debate individual Jews are having with themselves. Am I right to be worried? Should I be packing my bags to leave, or should I at least know where my bags are? This is hardly Kristallnacht, says one voice. It was hardly Kristallnacht before it was Kristallnacht, says another. How many Berlin Jews saw the writing on the wall? Oh come on, London today is not the Berlin of the 1930s. No, but Berlin in the 1920s wasnt the Berlin of the 30s.
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The first two paragraphs pretty much sum it up!
Mosby
(16,342 posts)Accusations of "false flag". In one of the first OPS about the murders in denmark the very first reply was simply "false flag". That's just pure Antisemitism Imo.
Behind the Aegis
(53,979 posts)I have seen more "clever" ways of the same sentiment being expressed. It really makes me wonder if there was ever a Jew murdered that wasn't automatically claimed to be "false flag." What I see, again, is how the anti-Semitism element is overlooked, ignored, or excused in lieu of "worry" about the perpetrators or victims that do not exist.
ETA: Of course, there are those hot on the trail of Netanyahu and blaming him, Israel and reminding Jews, such as yourself, how we are responsible for halting anti-Semitism.
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)I just watched a video wherein Bill Nye (who I used to like) said the Jewish people in Europe are being prosecuted because they are "neighborly." What a putz.
It seems I don't know who to trust these days.
If I wasn't so old, I'd make aliyah.
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)I don't understand why the truth has to be silenced.
its not the right wing.
its not the eskimos.
and yet am I allowed to say it ?
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)(To the jury,Ive research it and Pat Condell had been posted multiple times on Du before without getting a hide
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1015127
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x182508
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x485257
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x591981
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101729520#post1
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x285718
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x462769
A lot of people like his views...and some don't.
PCIntern
(25,577 posts)you have to anticipate that your pst will be reliably alerted upon.
Behind the Aegis
(53,979 posts)...CONSTANTLY, "reminding" us that things are or aren't anti-Semitic with such pronouncements as "nobody believes such and such" or "that isn't really anti-Semitism." Then there are the others who charge us with "playing the anti-Semitism card" or "using the Holocaust to cover Israel crimes" all the while comparing Israel to Nazi Germany.
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)About this problem, then she started laughing at it.
"Serves the Europeans right. They kicked out or killed 10,000,000 productive citizens and replaced them with 10,000,000 people who will eventually kick them out or kill them."
Is a rough paraphrase. She was less forgiving than me. But then, the Germans left her with a number tatted on her arm, and I left before the problems really got going.
But, yes, it is not PC to say who is causing the problem.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)a progressive board - whether posters immediately trying to deflect and mention how other "groups" have it so much worse or calling it a false flag (like the Dutch operation was when posted) is pretty fucking depressing. And then there are those who think it's perfectly understandable due to actions by Israel. If someone tried to tie anti-Muslim sentiment to the actions of Saudi Arabia, the outrcry would be deafening. Yet time and time again, in just about every single post on antisemitism, Israel is mentioned. And I'm sure those posters would howl to the moon if they were called antisemites. They don't even see their utter, repulsive hypocrisy.
Behind the Aegis
(53,979 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 24, 2015, 03:41 AM - Edit history (1)
Mere criticism of the actions of the Israel government does not equate to antisemitism
Of course, no one was claiming anything to the like. But we are assured that the "left" is all about being against anti-Semitism, not to mention the double standards when it comes to Israel.. I am sure they don't like sugar on their porridge either.
"Inspiring images of over 1000 Muslims forming 'ring of peace' around Oslo synagogue"It's far past time for Israel to recognize Palestine.
My view, even as a casual observer over the decades seems to suggest that:
When the Jewish nation of Israel attacks their enemies they are "Israel" as a nation and political body.
When Israel is being attacked, either with weapons or in print as a nation for their political stance, that once political body now becomes a Jewish nation and all attackers are strictly "anti-Semites".
The world, including myself, is growing tired of that ploy.
Israel doesn't even have to be mentioned for someone to "criticize" it, all that is needed is the mention of JEWS.
It goes on and on, and supposedly "it's all in our heads."
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)And socialists need allies, so they excuse the idiots.
Note, I did not say socialists are anti-Semites.
I said anti-Semites tend to like Socialism (or really any kind of authoritative government -- it could be right wing, like the Nazis). They like to pull the levers of power to get what they want, and it is easier to do with a centralized government.
I am very much a socialist but I am well aware that a strong central government can be perverted (e.g., Bush, Hitler, whomever).
Be curious if a socialist state is possible with weak laws and government.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Where do you get the idea that antisemites like socialism? Which socialist governments do you consider authoritarian?
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)My post was not well thought out, so you're right, it was confusing.
I think a better statement would be "anti-Semites" (or any whacko group) like strong centralized government, of any kind.
I happen to be on the socialist spectrum, so that's where I've seen the problem.
I still read "The Jewish Daily Forward" if that means something to anyone not my age.
Anti-Semites constantly infiltrate whatever, and socialist parties are no exception. Take the National Socialist Party in Nazi Germany, for the most extreme example. That was a generic workers' party that got completely co-opted.
Basically, my point is centralized governments (this could be an oligarchy or whatever) are easier to abuse because the levers of power are in the hands of fewer, so you need a smaller like-minded group to do bad things.
As to your question, "which socialist governments do you consider authoritarian?" you could look to any given hellhole in the Middle East that pretends to be socialist.
But as to an actual socialist government being authoritarian? I can't point to any, because, to my knowledge, all such movements get hijacked by assholes prior to really becoming properly socialist.
Which is why I wonder if it is possible to have socialist ideals (which I like) without a strong central authority to make it so (which I distrust because assholes inevitably seem to grab the reigns and warp the movement).
My take home point is to be extremely vigilant in kicking out assholes that are fellow socialist travelers, because they WILL take over and they WILL ruin everything.
MessengerFromIsrael
(4 posts)Today we define ourselves as Jews in many ways: by common heritage, observance of Jewish laws, lineage, or by a combination of all or some of the above. But many years back, before the ruin of the Temple, Jews were defined first and foremost by their spirit -- the spirit of camaraderie and mutual responsibility. "Love your neighbor as yourself" was the great klal ("rule," but also "sum total" by which we lived. It was a rule that included within it every other precept, the pinnacle of human spiritual achievement. This is why we, Jews, became a nation only when we pledged to be "as one man with one heart" at the foot of Mt. Sinai. This is also what allowed us to develop the humane society that we had cultivated for centuries, and which has given the world so many of its cultural and moral assets.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-laitman/the-simple-and-unwelcome-_b_6687030.html
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)While the article sounds wonderful, it can also be seen as jews being a FREE PUNCHING BAG.
Sorry, that was tried in the 1930s ....NEVER AGAIN.
ddembitz
(2 posts)Maybe the ethnic prejudice has always been a strong constituent of the US Civil Service or maybe it is just an ingrained problem in the Boston Metro area? I am new to the group, but if possible, I would like to attach some files to my posts to illustrate the concerns. The US government has sponsored an "Idea Hub" which requests some changes or new ideas for the US civil service. One idea which was posted was to have management require federal employees to take diversity training. No action has been taken on that post. In the FAA, there is no mandatory diversity training, but there clearly is entrenched bigotry at the managements levels which leads directly to discrimination.
Is there a way to attach files to our posts?
Maybe this concern is not interesting to the group or maybe the discussion is being handled elsewhere? Pointers in the right direction would be appreciated.
Thanks.