Science
Related: About this forumThe Fermi paradox vs the “Undetectability Conjecture,”
Evolutionary selection, acting on a cosmic scale, tends to extinguish species which conspicuously advertise themselves and their habitats, according to Adrian Kent, Centre for Quantum Computation, University of Cambridge.
The Fermi paradox is the apparent contradiction between high estimates of the probability of the existence of extraterrestrial civilizations and the lack of evidence for, or contact with, such civilizations. As Enrico Fermi asked if the Universe is conducive to intelligent life, Where is everybody?
An answer proposed by Adrian Kent of the University of Cambridge and Perimeter Institute, is that extraterrestial life sufficiently advanced to be capable of interstellar travel or communication must be rare, since otherwise we would have seen evidence of it by now. This in turn is sometimes taken as indirect evidence for the improbability of life evolving at all in our universe.
Intelligent species might reasonably worry about the possible dangers of self-advertisement and hence incline towards discretion -- the Undetectability Conjecture, put forth by Beatriz Gato-Rivera, a theoretical physicist at the Instituto de Fisica Fundamental (previously Instituto de Matematicas y Fisica Fundamental) of the CSIC (Spanish Scientific Research Council) in Madrid.
According to Gato-Rivera, we may find ourselves in a universe in which there exist intelligent technological civilizations but they have chosen to be undetectable, camouflaging themselves mainly for security reasons (because advanced civilizations could also be aggressive).
It often seems, Kent concludes, "to be implicitly assumed, and sometimes is explicitly argued, that colonising or otherwise exploiting the resources of other planets and other solar systems will solve our problems when the Earths resources can no longer sustain our consumption. It might perhaps be worth contemplating more seriously the possibility that there may be limits to the territory we can safely colonise and to the resources we can safely exploit, and to consider whether and how it might be possible to evolve towards a way of living that can be sustained (almost) indefinitely on the resources of (say) our solar system alone.
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2012/09/cosmic-camouflage-advanced-et-civilizations-may-be-undetectable.html
tama
(9,137 posts)the origin of the very idea and attitude behind the will to "safely colonise, safely exploit".
Who knows, perhaps all the claimed channelings of extraterrestial civilizations about peace and harmony and ecological balance are not just noise and personal aspirations, but there is some form of contact with some form of intelligence and common message coming through culturally dependent interpretations. Something that makes me think of Keany Reeves movie "The Day That Earth Stood Still".
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)the civilization didn't want to be known and where thus hidden.
Star Gate SG1
Star Trek the new Generation.
Original Star Trek....etc
So even science is catching on to what
science fiction writers have been thinking.
Why should I make my presence known to the primitive animal I tagged for biological study if I want to see how they react in their natural habitat?
I thought it was an interesting article to contemplate after all the new earth like planets we are seeing in just a small section of the galaxy
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Predators also often do not wish to advertise their presence.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)There's a big logical flaw with Gato-Riviera's idea. That's why I'm a firm believer in the Fermi Paradox.
What is that flaw? If a society/species was aggressive or warlike, it would have killed itself or hobbled its technological advancement, by intra-fighting way before it got to the "warp-drive" stage of civilization.
qazplm
(3,626 posts)doesn't mean you are guaranteed to fall to in-fighting. Not at all. I can think of several reasons based on religion/racial/specist/other that a civilization might have a "don't attack our own but attack others" mindset.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)> I can think of several reasons based on religion/racial/specist/other that a civilization might have a "don't attack our own but attack others" mindset.
That's the point. The planet where the other species lived would have had too much in-fighting.
Without some kind of competitive nature to drive it to higher achievements (i.e, technology) a species will probably founder on some evolutionary backwater. It won't get to the "hyper-drive" level needed for interplanetary travel & communication.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,364 posts)You point out that you think that if a species is aggressive, it would stop itself before getting to interstellar travel. That's just your opinion. You haven't found anything logically wrong with Gato-Riviera's suggestion.
However, I would ask you how someone is a 'believer' in a paradox. The paradox is a situation where we find something that our reasoning tells us we shouldn't. What do you mean when you say you are a 'believer' in that paradox?
bongbong
(5,436 posts)> You point out that you think that if a species is aggressive, it would stop itself before getting to interstellar travel.
The "if" (aggressive species) is the premise. Without it, obviously, the conclusion (it would stop itself) can't follow.
> However, I would ask you how someone is a 'believer' in a paradox
Read up on what the Fermi Paradox is, and you'll understand that it isn't the type of paradox that you accuse me of somehow being illogical in believing.
Hopefully, at least.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,364 posts)Gato-Riviera says that intelligent species would hide in case other, aggressive, interstellar species exist. It is only your opinion that every single species that has the potential to become interstellar would destroy itself before it actually reaches that stage. Gato-Riviera may not share that opinion, and he is suggesting that some species would not share it either - and therefore decide to hide, just in case aggressive interstellar species do exist. There is no logical problem with that.
As described in the OP, the Fermi Paradox is not something in which you can 'believe'. It's a paradox - that, despite huge numbers of suitable stars, we see no evidence of intelligent life. It sounds as if you believe in one particular explanation for it - for instance, the one titled "It is the nature of intelligent life to destroy itself" on Wikipedia. But that is not the only explanation that has been put forward.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)> he is suggesting that some species would not share it either - and therefore decide to hide, just in case aggressive interstellar species do exist.
Since we haven't heard a "peep" from any other species, he must be saying ALL species that become capable of radio, not just some.
Further, the idea of self-replicating robots, exploring the galaxy for thousands if not millions of years, doesn't add any risk to "shy" species. Complete anonymity about where the robots came from would be easy to design into them. But we don't see these, do we? Unless UFOs are them ...
> As described in the OP, the Fermi Paradox is not something in which you can 'believe'.
I agree with his thinking, that created his Paradox. That we aren't hearing from aliens for a reason. Should've added that earlier, although I thought it was obvious.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,364 posts)If you want the robot to send back some information, then it will be traceable - you take the robot apart, and work out where it would send information to. If you don't want to ever hear from it (or see it) again, then what good is it? It's just a robot that might go wrong and ruin something.
Yes, I suppose he is saying that all technological species will hide fairly quickly once they become visible.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)> If you want the robot to send back some information, then it will be traceable - you take the robot apart, and work out where it would send information to.
No, you have it send radio signals back in many directions - which it would have to anyway since you would have no idea if it was upside down or whatever when it sent its signals.
> Yes, I suppose he is saying that all technological species will hide fairly quickly once they become visible.
So your theory means that 1 second after a species invents radio, they hastily shut it down?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,364 posts)If you shut down radio emissions with a century or two, you're not taking up much time compared to the age of the galaxy, or the time it takes to travel around (if the speed of light really is limiting, which I assume it is).
Any self-respecting robot (and I think a self-replicating one would also be self-respecting ) could use stars to orient itself so it would know which direction home is. Yes, I suppose you could broadcast in every direction (though it offends my sense of efficiency), but, if I was worried about aggressive species, I think I'd worry they'd be able to trace the route of a robot back, somehow.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)> If you shut down radio emissions with a century or two, you're not taking up much time compared to the age of the galaxy,
Shutting down radio emissions isn't as easy as you think. Many physical processes, as well as electronic circuits, give off radio signals even if they're not designed to. You'd also have to shut down any space program of your own, as it communicating with your space vehicles requires radio (or a very long cord - which gives off its own radiation). Power generation. Essentially, you'd have to stop technology's progress nearly completely at some point, as the more complex and interconnected your planet is, the more radio signals it generates, albeit unintentionally.
> if I was worried about aggressive species, I think I'd worry they'd be able to trace the route of a robot back, somehow.
Just have the robot take a random path. Better yet, have your self-replicating robot build their next generation on a deserted asteroid or planet that had the requisite materials on it, far from the home planet. Then "tracing it back" does no good.
longship
(40,416 posts)However, first, Fermi's observation was that the age of the galaxy was such that it would be possible for a technological society to colonize the entire galaxy. So where are they?
The answer that makes the most sense is simply that distances between technological societies are vast and interstellar travel is extraordinarily expensive and time-consuming. It would be a one way trip. Tech societies are likely stranded in their stellar systems. There are likely no warp drives to help here, or there.
Mathematician Ian Stewart has an interesting and amusing answer. All tech societies will eventually think of the Fermi paradox. Maybe what's happening is that they are all just waiting around for contact, one which will never come because they're all sitting around waiting and not venturing out. On SETI, maybe they're all listening and nobody's actually transmitting.
Myself, I think the galaxy is full of life with many tech societies. The numbers are just too large for us to be alone. Whether we will ever be contacted, I don't know. Somehow, I think it's unlikely. The distances are just too damned huge.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)As such its equally likely that similar accidents have occurred elsewhere but what such life may have evolved into is a different matter.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,049 posts)If there was an aggressive, xenophobic race that sent out ships to destroy emerging civilizations, we should have been wiped out already. There should be a world killer death-bot machine in every solar system waiting for the first flicker of radio signals or cities with artificial light. The galaxy is old enough for self replicating machines to be everywhere by now, even if interstellar travel moves at a small fractio of light speed.
sofa king
(10,857 posts)In his books The Forge of God and Anvil of Stars, humans learn too late that the galaxy is a dog-eat-dog place where competition is not welcomed by all.
Of course, his is a prediction we don't wish to see come true, either.
caraher
(6,279 posts)If there are many civilizations out there I'd imagine some, perhaps most, would choose to keep their presence unknown to us (and others). But it seems unlikely that this would be true universally. Put another way, you could do a "Drake equation" analysis to which you add just one more factor - the probability a civilization would not take steps to conceal its existence.
I think it all still comes back to the usual explanations for the Fermi paradox. This is just an additional factor that pushes downward the probability of contact.
eppur_se_muova
(36,290 posts)Last edited Mon Sep 17, 2012, 12:06 PM - Edit history (1)
and channel all their communications by means not easily detectable by outsiders, such as quantum entanglement. A century from now, we might have no strong single-source radio transmitters for aliens to eavesdrop on either. Think of an all fiber-optic and cellular world.
And yes, virtually everything we think we know about the presence or absence of other civilizations is based on radio observation.
Phoonzang
(2,899 posts)1.)Human motivations for alien species
2.)That we have the technology to detect them. We don't barring someone sending an intentional signal right at us. We don't have the capability to detect "leakage" like TV signals and the like.
3.)There haven't been alien visitations in the past (millions of years). Such evidence of visitation might easily have disappeared after such a long time.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)Fermi devised his paradox before the idea of self-repairing and self-replicating robots to spend thousands/millions of years exploring was a well-known technology idea. Maybe it existed in some science fiction, but Fermi didn't mention the factor in his paradox.
It is important, because it's a game-changer in discussions about interstellar communication. It allows the factor of "limited lifetime of people/equipment", as an explanation as to why we haven't been contacted, to vanish.