Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
Fri Oct 18, 2013, 07:14 PM Oct 2013

What Happens When a Language Has No Numbers?

By Mike Vuolo


The Pirahã are an indigenous people, numbering around 700, living along the banks of the Maici River in the jungle of northwest Brazil. Their language, also called Pirahã, is so unusual in so many ways that it was profiled in 2007 in a 12,000-word piece in the New Yorker by John Colapinto, who wrote:

Unrelated to any other extant tongue, and based on just eight consonants and three vowels, Pirahã has one of the simplest sound systems known. Yet it possesses such a complex array of tones, stresses, and syllable lengths that its speakers can dispense with their vowels and consonants altogether and sing, hum, or whistle conversations.

Among Pirahã's many peculiarities is an almost complete lack of numeracy, an extremely rare linguistic trait of which there are only a few documented cases. The language contains no words at all for discrete numbers and only three that approximate some notion of quantity—hói, a "small size or amount," hoí, a "somewhat larger size or amount," and baágiso, which can mean either to "cause to come together" or "a bunch."

With no way to express exact integers, the obvious question is: How do the Pirahã count? More pragmatically, how do they ask for two of something instead of just one? The answer—according to some of the more recent research on anumeracy, published by anthropological linguist Caleb Everett in the journal Cognitive Science—suggests, almost inconceivably, that they don't.

more

http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2013/10/16/piraha_cognitive_anumeracy_in_a_language_without_numbers.html

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
What Happens When a Language Has No Numbers? (Original Post) n2doc Oct 2013 OP
"numbering around 700" FiveGoodMen Oct 2013 #1
There are only many numbers.... Xipe Totec Oct 2013 #2
Did you just write that because it sounds cool? Because it doesn't make any sense. DetlefK Oct 2013 #9
There's a saying in computer science that the only numbers that matter are zero, one and arbitrary Xipe Totec Oct 2013 #10
WTF??? No they aren't. Their algebra doesn't form a ring. DetlefK Oct 2013 #11
You must be fun to be around at parties. Xipe Totec Oct 2013 #12
You too. DetlefK Oct 2013 #13
he. was. making. a. joke. Marrah_G Oct 2013 #15
Sorry. He should have used the sarcasm-tag that I refuse to use. DetlefK Oct 2013 #16
Heh :) Marrah_G Oct 2013 #17
It's okat Xipe, you made a bunch of us grin :) Marrah_G Oct 2013 #14
Thanks! :) nt Xipe Totec Oct 2013 #18
Binary numeral system, or base-2 numeral system illyricus Oct 2013 #21
welcome to DU gopiscrap Oct 2013 #22
I did not know that. Xipe Totec Oct 2013 #23
The Pirahã consider all forms of human discourse other than their own to be laughably inferior pscot Oct 2013 #3
How many other? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #4
The original 2007 New Yorker article is quite interestng PSPS Oct 2013 #5
Sometimes I think of language as a parasite that lives upon the minds of humans. hunter Oct 2013 #6
Language is a virus n2doc Oct 2013 #7
I imagine that some would consider it a necessary liberal viewpoint to "value" such differences... Silent3 Oct 2013 #8
Science yes, money no. hunter Oct 2013 #19
Wonder if they use sfa to mean nothing. dipsydoodle Oct 2013 #20

Xipe Totec

(43,890 posts)
2. There are only many numbers....
Fri Oct 18, 2013, 07:23 PM
Oct 2013

Zero, one, and many.

Or none, unique, and ordinary.

Everything else is a distinction without a difference.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
9. Did you just write that because it sounds cool? Because it doesn't make any sense.
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 06:44 AM
Oct 2013

It makes a difference how "many" meals your group gets: starvation, cannibalism or survival.

Xipe Totec

(43,890 posts)
10. There's a saying in computer science that the only numbers that matter are zero, one and arbitrary
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 06:51 AM
Oct 2013

Who would have thought it, but the Pirahã are as mathematically advanced as our computer scientists.


http://ericlippert.com/2013/09/19/math-from-scratch-part-two/

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
11. WTF??? No they aren't. Their algebra doesn't form a ring.
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 07:14 AM
Oct 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_%28mathematics%29

If you add "small amount" and "medium amount", how much do you get?
"Medium amount" or "big amount"? Or something inbetween?

If you add "big amount" and "big amount", how much do you get?
"big amount" or something beyond that?


You can't base your argument on some cool-sounding, context-free quote from an anonymous source.

Xipe Totec

(43,890 posts)
12. You must be fun to be around at parties.
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:22 AM
Oct 2013

If this is how you interact in general, I have no interest in further contact with you.

Bye.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
13. You too.
Mon Oct 21, 2013, 10:10 AM
Oct 2013

Seriously, do you have any other argument than "some people say so"?

Sorry, if I came across as rude, but I absolutely can't stand it when people get all pseudo-scientific and new-age. I don't mind questions, but if you claim something, be prepaired to prove it.
Knowledge is more than repeating a sound-byte.
Insight is more than repeating a sound-byte.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
16. Sorry. He should have used the sarcasm-tag that I refuse to use.
Tue Oct 22, 2013, 11:37 AM
Oct 2013

In my defense:
1. There are some woo-guys around here on DU.
2. Typing without thinking is a sin we all have committed, including me.

illyricus

(1 post)
21. Binary numeral system, or base-2 numeral system
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:37 AM
Oct 2013

- Binary systems predating Leibniz also existed in the ancient world. The aforementioned I Ching that inspired Leibniz dates from the 9th century BC in China.[5] The binary system of the I Ching, a text for divination, is based on the duality of yin and yang.[6] Leibniz interpreted the hexagrams as evidence of binary calculus.[3] The text contains a set of eight trigrams (Bagua) and a set of 64 hexagrams ("sixty-four" gua), analogous to the three-bit and six-bit binary numerals, were in use at least as early as the Zhou Dynasty of ancient China. The Bushmen of Africa communicated using drums with binary tones which enabled them to encode messages.[6] The Indian scholar Pingala (around 5th–2nd centuries BC) developed a binary system for describing prosody.[7][8] He used binary numbers in the form of short and long syllables (the latter equal in length to two short syllables), making it similar to Morse code.[9][10] Pingala's Hindu classic titled Chandaḥśāstra (8.23) describes the formation of a matrix in order to give a unique value to each meter. An example of such a matrix is as follows (note that these binary representations are "backwards" compared to modern, Western positional notation):[11][12]
0 0 0 0 numerical value 1101 0 0 0 numerical value 2100 1 0 0 numerical value 3101 1 0 0 numerical value 410
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_number

PSPS

(13,601 posts)
5. The original 2007 New Yorker article is quite interestng
Fri Oct 18, 2013, 08:34 PM
Oct 2013

A Reporter at Large

The Interpreter

Has a remote Amazonian tribe upended our understanding of language?

by John Colapinto April 16, 2007


Dan Everett believes that Pirahã undermines Noam Chomsky’s idea of a universal grammar. Photograph by Martin Schoeller.

One morning last July, in the rain forest of northwestern Brazil, Dan Everett, an American linguistics professor, and I stepped from the pontoon of a Cessna floatplane onto the beach bordering the Maici River, a narrow, sharply meandering tributary of the Amazon. On the bank above us were some thirty people—short, dark-skinned men, women, and children—some clutching bows and arrows, others with infants on their hips. The people, members of a hunter-gatherer tribe called the Pirahã, responded to the sight of Everett—a solidly built man of fifty-five with a red beard and the booming voice of a former evangelical minister—with a greeting that sounded like a profusion of exotic songbirds, a melodic chattering scarcely discernible, to the uninitiated, as human speech. Unrelated to any other extant tongue, and based on just eight consonants and three vowels, Pirahã has one of the simplest sound systems known. Yet it possesses such a complex array of tones, stresses, and syllable lengths that its speakers can dispense with their vowels and consonants altogether and sing, hum, or whistle conversations. It is a language so confounding to non-natives that until Everett and his wife, Keren, arrived among the Pirahã, as Christian missionaries, in the nineteen-seventies, no outsider had succeeded in mastering it. Everett eventually abandoned Christianity, but he and Keren have spent the past thirty years, on and off, living with the tribe, and in that time they have learned Pirahã as no other Westerners have.

The rest: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/04/16/070416fa_fact_colapinto

hunter

(38,317 posts)
6. Sometimes I think of language as a parasite that lives upon the minds of humans.
Sat Oct 19, 2013, 01:09 PM
Oct 2013

Language isn't a tool we use, it actually directs our thoughts and behaviors.

Too me one of the more disturbing aspects of this is the way we our culture thinks about money. Once we accept the "reality" of money we are easily manipulated by those who manage money's "creation."

A culture that has no counting words is going to be resistant to the parasitism of the world money culture. The parasitism of this culture is going to be more obvious to them.

The world money culture has become the dominant culture because it has the organizational ability to kill off those who are not susceptible to this kind of parasitism.



Silent3

(15,221 posts)
8. I imagine that some would consider it a necessary liberal viewpoint to "value" such differences...
Sun Oct 20, 2013, 12:52 PM
Oct 2013

...but the only "value" I find here is that this lack of numbers is a fascinating phenomena, and perhaps an opportunity to learn more about language and human psychology.

Beyond that, however, I find the Pirahã's situation kind of sad. I see these people as having fallen into a linguistic, developmental, and cultural trap that cuts them off from a huge, important area of human thought. I'm certainly not denying that these people can find happiness without numbers and math, but so much of the world at large is lost to them without numbers. It's hard to imagine that there's much of any special compensatory insight they gain in exchange for this loss.

Latest Discussions»Culture Forums»Science»What Happens When a Langu...