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snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 01:26 PM Mar 2014

The simplest and most understandable explanation of the gravitional wave discovery

I've come across. I'm scientifically challenged but curious. I found this article very helpful.


snip

Albert Einstein saw gravity differently than everyone else. We feel it as an invisible pull towards the centre of the Earth, but he saw it as a curvature of space. In his eyes, our solar system was like a giant trampoline with the sun a heavy bowling ball in the centre that pushes the fabric of the trampoline downwards into a well. The Earth and other planets are riding the walls of this gravity well, following the curvature of space. That same curvature would also bend the path of light from a distant star.

snip

Einstein also predicted gravitational waves, which would be like pounding on the surface of the trampoline, making it shudder up and down, and sending ripples across its surface. These elusive waves have been much harder to detect, which is why scientists were so excited this week. Evidence of their existence was spotted in the oldest light in the universe.

After poring through years of data from a telescope at the South Pole, they discovered a swirling pattern that emerged in the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) that comes from beyond the galaxies and permeates every direction in the sky. This is the most distant and oldest light our telescopes can see and is the residual glow of the Big Bang that started the universe on its expanding path to the future.

The swirling patterns are believed to come from gravitational waves that rippled through the early universe, ripples that produced the lumps and clumps of energy that eventually became stars, galaxies, planets and, more recently, humans who are trying to figure the whole thing out.

In other words, this announcement not only answers the fundamental questions of where we came from and how we got here, but also shows that science has been on the right track with the Big Bang Theory. But there is still much more to figure out.




http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/technology/quirks-quarks-blog/2014/03/why-you-should-care-about-cosmic-inflation.html









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The simplest and most understandable explanation of the gravitional wave discovery (Original Post) snagglepuss Mar 2014 OP
Einstein based general relativity on the invariance principle mindwalker_i Mar 2014 #1
I don't get Einstein's reasoning either cpwm17 Mar 2014 #2
Actually, the idea that gravitational and inertial mass are equal mindwalker_i Mar 2014 #3
To determine the movement an object must take cpwm17 Mar 2014 #4
That's true, inertia becomes part of the equation mindwalker_i Mar 2014 #5
What do you mean by "inertial force?" caraher Mar 2014 #7
Don't you mean "equivalence principle?" caraher Mar 2014 #6

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
1. Einstein based general relativity on the invariance principle
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 04:19 PM
Mar 2014

In a gravitational field, all objects fall at the same rate if other forces, like air resistance, can be ignored. The larger masses have a greater attraction to the source of the gravitational field (the planet, in our case) but they also have a greater inertia, which EXACTLY compensates for the greater gravitational attraction.

Einstein said that inertial forces were the same as gravitational forces. The most common description is that, if one were in a sealed room on Earth, they would feel gravity pulling them down. However, if they were in a room in outer space, but with a rocket accelerating them at a gravity, it would be exactly the same.

Einstein's conslusion was that intertial forces weren't "like" gravitational forces, they ARE gravitational forces. From the fact that greater inertia counteracts greater gravitational attraction exactly, there is good reason to believe they're the same thing. However, they seems like different things to me. If someone has a different perspective that can show why gravity and inertia are the same, please let me know

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
2. I don't get Einstein's reasoning either
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 07:44 PM
Mar 2014

"Greater inertia counteracts greater gravitational attraction exactly": there's nothing coincidental about that, as far as I can see.

I don't really get this reasoning. The forces on an object must balance. If the forces don't balance then wouldn't the object have infinite acceleration, which would then give the object infinite energy? Nature can't allow that. The Universe would blow up, or something.

Gravity does work on an object by turning gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy. An imbalance of forces is impossible here. Finite gravitational potential energy can't create infinite kinetic energy. But since Einstein was an expert in thinking outside the box he must have had a much deeper reasoning why inertial forces and gravitational forces are equal. The proof is in Einstein's results. He got so much correct.

I don't understand the trampoline analogy either. How does the trampoline relate to space in the real world. Is the direction of space defined as the path that light takes through space? How does any of that relate to the trampoline and gravity?

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
3. Actually, the idea that gravitational and inertial mass are equal
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 08:01 PM
Mar 2014

goes back to Galileo and the leaning tower of pizza. It was believed that heavier object fell faster. It's certainly true that the attractive force is greater - pick up a feather, then pick up a boulder and this will become immediately apparent. The attractive force is proportional to the mass of the object, penny or boulder. However, the greater inertial of the boulder will cause it to fall at the same rate as the penny if they are dropped.

Now, instead of the attractive force being caused by gravity, imagine that the Earth, penny, and boulder are electrically charged. Say the Earth in negatively charged (probably Fred Phelp's fault), and the penny and boulder have equal positive charged. They will be attracted to the Earth with equal forces, due to the equal charges. However, their rates of "falling" to the Earth will be very different. This is due to the boulder having a much higher inertia.

so the question becomes, why are gravitational forces linked to inertial forces, while electric (electromagnetic, strong, or weak) forces are not linked to inertia? Mass appears to have a special connection to gravity and inertia that the other forces don't have.

BTW, the boulder and penny have different forces - an imbalance, as you put it earlier. Inertia compensates for it. Imbalances won't cause infinite acceleration, they cause non-zero acceleration.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
4. To determine the movement an object must take
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 06:24 AM
Mar 2014

a physicist determines all of the eternal forces that are applied to the object and any unbalanced external force that is applied causes the object to accelerate in that direction, using the simple equation: F=MA (force = mass of the object times acceleration). So if the physicist knows the mass of the object and the unbalanced external force he can solve for the acceleration of the object.

In the total equation, the countering force from the inertia of the object balances the equation. The equation must balance. If it didn't balance, something terrible must happen. The countering force from the inertia of the object must exactly equal the external force or the object would continue to go faster. If it didn't ever balance, the object would go infinitely fast, gather infinite energy, and the Universe would explode. That would suck.

An object only being pulled by gravity is accelerated by one G. So F=MG. That's the external force. As with any equation, the internal inertia of the object must balance the external force. This equation is simple, partly because both the force of gravity and inertia are proportional to mass. But that doesn't necessarily mean that gravitational and inertial mass are equal. Einstein says they are. I presume he is correct, but he must have a deeper reasoning than just the fact that the external force of gravity and the countering force from the inertial mass must balance.

Since electrical charge isn't proportional to mass, different mass objects with equal charges will fall at different accelerations. That does make the calculations a little more complicated.

It makes sense that a bolder accelerates at the same rate as a feather in a gravitational field since you can think of the bolder as a dense collection of feathers. Why would the feathers accelerate faster if combined?

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
5. That's true, inertia becomes part of the equation
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 01:22 PM
Mar 2014

When I took dynamics (mechanical engineering, study of objects in motion), inertia developed the "force" that made all forces sum to zero, it just required a certain acceleration. And I love your description of a boulder as a dense collection of feathers

There have been quite a few experiments done to determine why gravitational and inertial mass are equal. I remember reading something in the last year or so about carefully dropping to objects or highly different masses in vacuum and measuring their accelerations. They came out equal within the accuracy of the experimental apparatus. When two things are equal with such high precision, it can't be just a coincidence, which is why physicists believe there has to be a deeper connection. Unfortunately, that will likely have to wait for a quantum gravitational theory.

caraher

(6,279 posts)
7. What do you mean by "inertial force?"
Mon Mar 24, 2014, 12:32 AM
Mar 2014

"Inertia" is something measured in kg - it's the same thing as mass. And mass is not force. Inertia is something that lets you relate net force to acceleration. And when forces do not balance, the result is not infinite acceleration, but acceleration inversely proportional to inertia.

The trampoline analogy only makes sense if you understand the trampoline as analogous to spacetime. A common illustration of Einstein's ideas is to imagine a bowling ball on a trampoline and a smaller ball "orbiting" the bowling ball. The bowling ball is like the Sun, the small ball Earth, and the interaction occurs through the intermediary of the warped sheet of the trampoline. "Matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move" is the slogan version of this.

Now the blog is trying to explain gravitational waves... those imagine that this trampoline sheet also supports vibrations - those would be the gravitational waves.

Also... I found a good brief introduction to Einstein's equivalence principle. The whole view of gravity inspired by Einstein is that it's not a "force" the way, say, electromagnetism is a force, but rather a basically geometric quantity, locally indistinguishable in its dynamic effects from acceleration. I guess in aviation they run the analogy in reverse - "pulling Gs" is just accelerating, and it turns out the acceleration of a body in freefall near Earth's surface is a handy unit for measuring those accelerations!

caraher

(6,279 posts)
6. Don't you mean "equivalence principle?"
Mon Mar 24, 2014, 12:10 AM
Mar 2014

Einstein said that locally, the effects of gravity and acceleration were identical - that they were equivalent. You may be confusing the language with the invariant spacetime interval between events of special relativity.

Why inertial mass and gravitational mass are the same really is a deep mystery. I don't think inertia is a force at all, however, so it's hard to react to what you say about "inertial forces." Perhaps you mean what I've heard referred to as "pseudo-forces" like centrifugal forces, Coriolis forces, etc. whose hallmarks are that they are proportional to mass and arise in accelerating reference frames. The similarity between these forces that arise only in accelerated frames and gravity helps inspire the notion that there may be some deep sense in which gravity might be regarded as a "pseudo" force in close analogy to all the other forces that disappear when you analyze motion in an inertial reference frame.

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