Science
Related: About this forumStudy: What would happen if the whole US decided to go vegan.
https://gizmodo.com/new-study-shows-what-would-happen-if-the-us-went-vegan-1820429136The researchers looked at hypothetical changes to the entire livestock process, including people and industry, fuel, and raising crops for animals, for example. They found a 23 percent increase in the amount of food availablemainly in grainsand a 28 percent decrease in agricultural greenhouse gas emissions. However, they only found a 2.6 percent decrease in overall greenhouse gas emissions. They also found deficiencies in the American diets essential nutrients.
Many will probably remind me that it is possible to live healthily on a vegan diet, though doing so might require supplements and extra work, including producing more of certain calcium and Vitamin B12-containing foods. Others might remind me that meat replacements like plant-based burgers and lab grown meat should be taken seriously.
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I see the B12 as the big problem. The only vegan food that contains enough B12 for a human diet (without vitamin-pills as supplements) is the japanese seaweed Nori. So unless the US starts farming Nori on a national scale, there's no way a nation-wide vegan diet could work.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,914 posts)Keep in mind that humans evolved as omnivores, NOT as vegetarians or (even more absurdly) vegans. We need animal protein. Maybe not a whole lot, but that's part of what made us human.
Oh, and bullshit about eating uncooked food is just that: bullshit. We evolved into our current modern human form when we started cooking food. Cooking meat as well as vegetables. Have you ever wondered why other primates have such large stomachs? It's because they eat raw food, and need a small intestine about three times as long as we, eaters of cooked food, need.
Also, those who go totally gluten free need to pay careful attention so that they get all the nutrients they need. Not to mention gluten free crackers and pasta taste like crap.
handmade34
(22,758 posts)evolution is an ongoing process... (our traditions and arts are what makes us human)
at this point in time, food choices are primarily tradition (and really clever marketing by producers), not biological need...
food choices are extremely emotional and I find people argue this subject on an emotional level not a factual level... I could site study after study that shows a vegetarian/vegan diet to be acceptable and I could list many names of vegetarian/vegans that excel in sports and academics... their diet does limit them in any way
food choices seem to be driven by marketers (and fads) to a large extent right now and that is very troubling... I suggest that the "gluten free" fad (not for those with celiac disease) is a spectacular marketing tool that provides handsome profit to its producers...
the food we eat has become very complex and to eat wisely, to actual nourish our body, requires us to know ourselves and how we process food... I choose to eat a vegetarian diet (primarily in respect for the environment) as do a couple of my children (runners all) and we are extremely healthy and happy with our diet... my partner has diabetes and I encourage him to eat meat and fish as he in on an extreme low carb diet (his body cannot process the carbs)...
we have such bountiful access to many kinds of food and my concern is always the environment and how we are doing extreme damage with animal agriculture... that alone is the primary reason I advocate people cut the amount of meat and fish we all eat
longship
(40,416 posts)As another responder has already pointed out, humans have evolved as omnivores. Veganism is fine for those who choose it. But it's a bit wackoloon to me to suggest that we all go down that path.
And raw vegans are total wackaloons. The next step is fruitarians who just die. Or breathairians who are all fucking liars.
I eat less meat these days. I could deal with a vegetarian diet, but vegan is just plain stupid. No dairy or eggs? Blech! That means no cheese, no ice cream, no pizza, no omelets!
Screw that!
Voltaire2
(13,213 posts)Odd that you would read that into it.
longship
(40,416 posts)The entire premise of the article is that everybody should possibly go vegan.
I find it presumptuous. Hence my response.
Voltaire2
(13,213 posts)It seems all you did is read the damn title. We
longship
(40,416 posts)Click throughs are costly here in the national forest whereas DU is very efficient.
It won't be the first time people have fallen victim to the insidious headline writer.
Mea culpa!
janterry
(4,429 posts)It reminds me that I need to buy and use more seaweed. I know that farmers in Maine are getting more involved in production of seaweed. I like it - I just toast it on the stove.
I also use a lot of yeast on my foods - I really like it (so expensive, though!) and it has a lot of B12. I think it's an acquired taste... Though when we were in Portland Maine last year I bought popcorn that had lots of herbs and yeast. Although I use it on popcorn all the time at home, I was surprised that there was now a commercial market for it. (So, I guess the taste is popular enough for that .
I'm a long time vegetarian - and while I'll never be quite vegan, I do aspire to be more vegan .
mucifer
(23,576 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)I can imagine all kinds of diets and lifestyles that are 100% okay as long as I take medication that combats the downsides of my diet and lifestyle.
- No need to brush my teeth, I take fluoride-pills.
- No need to for working out, I take blood-pressure medication.
- No need to eat fruits and vegetables, I take vitamin-pills.
mucifer
(23,576 posts)It's not difficult. There are more and more of us out there and the ones who take B12 and eat healthy and exercise do as well as healthy eating omnivores many of whom are B12 deficient also and require B12 pills or even injections. It's a common deficiency in omnivores who can't get enough of it from their diet.
longship
(40,416 posts)A well balanced, diverse diet requires no supplementation.
What is silly is a diet that requires supplementation.
If you want to eat vegan, that's fine. Just don't talk to me about eating healthy.
mucifer
(23,576 posts)"I am not a vegetarian for my health. I am a vegetarian for the health of the chickens."
If you feel that taking one supplement makes me unhealthy so be it.
I know can live a long healthy life with my B12 with or without your approval and that's just fine.
longship
(40,416 posts)I just wonder why vegans seem to love to promote their dietary choices to everybody else. As I wrote above, I find it presumptuous.
Plus, it's a horrible, tasteless diet. But that's just my opinion.
Eat what you want, but keep it to yourself.
My best to you.
mucifer
(23,576 posts)Wherever we go we are bombarded with advertisements for meat products. Think about it the next time you listen to the radio or watch tv or look at billboards on the highway. Discussions from friends and family are very frequently about how great this animal product tastes or that animal product from such and such a restaurant.
It's not easy for us to see and hear this on a daily basis and feel that if we voice our opinions we are met with "keep it to yourself".
We aren't allowed the luxury of saying "keep your opinions to yourself" when it comes to discussions food.
I have heard the joke "How do you know someone is vegan? They will tell you. I turn that joke around and say "How do you know someone is an omnivore? Don't worry they will tell you. That gets a look of confusion from people. Then I remind them they constantly discuss eating meat dairy and eggs.
BTW for the most part I keep my mouth shut when omnivores talk about food. I try to tune it out.
Just another perspective and this is a thread about the vegan diet so I feel it's ok to express it here.
My best back to you .
longship
(40,416 posts)However, I will stand by my claim that the article in the OP is presumptuous.
I guess I just don't care at all what other people eat as long as they personally keep it to themselves.
Meat ads? Egg ads? Really? Those bother you? I am really sorry about that.
Hope your day is going well.
Regards.
byronius
(7,402 posts)Really, you're just so wrong about this. Flat, dead wrong. Virtually on the moon.
But I'm familiar with the tendency of my own intellect to create walls on either side of my personal path, so I truly do understand.
Still. Wrong. The palette changes, sauteed kale becomes the best, juiciest steak you've ever eaten, beans are heaven, food becomes -- a gorgeous drug with no bad side effects. You sleep better, get smarter, and miss all the standard American health issues -- you snap back faster from strenuous exercise (most long-distance runners are vegan, and it's invaded the NFL especially among running backs), you get more emotionally balanced.
By all means, keep your lifestyle. But your tone is defensive, your information false, your certainty and disingenuous politeness grating to someone who was most certainly on your side but a mere five years ago.
Insensitivity to animal suffering is a common thing, comfortable and warm. Still, insensitivity.
One hopes you might, with all your clearly complex thought patterns -- evolve.
longship
(40,416 posts)I just do not understand vegan. Why no dairy or eggs? I buy eggs locally from a small farm. I am lactose intolerant, so I only eat cheese. Sad, no more ice cream for me.
If you want to be vegan, have at it Hoss.
I choose not to go that route. And it has nothing to do with insensitivity to animal suffering, which is the card vegans universally play in these discussions. Look at nature for once. There you see suffering.
Evolve, as in become a vegan? No thank you.
I was brought up to be polite even in disagreement. That apparently is not a good thing to you. Sad.
My best to you. Respectfully.
byronius
(7,402 posts)Human consciousness avoids certain truths if they imply personal guilt, even in the thoughtful and aware. Why no dairy or eggs? I've slowly come to the conclusion that enslaving all other species for our gain is not a good thing. It's what we are, but not, in my opinion, what we should be. Many studies of late, especially the massive British one, show that consciousness is a continuum. To imply a sharp line between animal and man -- we are conscious, they are not, therefore we may use them at will without regard for their pain or fear -- is this not in essence a denial of nature? We're animals, some of us are conscious, they're animals, some of them are conscious. Clearly we don't have to eat them or enslave them to survive -- it's just a cultural habit. To cause pain and suffering for convenience and culture --
Well, that, my friend, is truly human and not animal at all.
I suspect you are as uncomfortable with these truths as I once was. I've read that one should be the vegan one would want to have met before one became a vegan. I was talked into it by a friend, grudgingly submitted, and six months later knew I could never return. And once I was there, my brain permitted me to see truths I'd been suppressing. Little truths like the fact that pigs are far smarter than dogs, form family groups, strategize and plan -- and that when they are facing the murder machine inside the factory farm, they scream and cry out in their own way, in a language we intellectually do not understand but instinctively grasp. Their fear is real, and their foreknowledge of their impending doom is as real and striking as ours.
Nature is cruel, yet man need not be. Insect logic is not evolutionarily beneficial; that is why we do not tear each other to pieces on sight in the hunt for food and mating. Pointing to bacteria as an excuse for one's violence is surrender, a refusal of the gift of consciousness.
You are indeed polite in your disagreement, if ignorant of your ignorance. I do appreciate it, but the tone rings hollow and brittle, as if you are forcing gracious words through clenched teeth. Politeness can be passively aggressive, and that is what I sense, a further denounciation delivered as a happy parting. It is the very definition of disingenuous.
But no matter. We live in chaos, you're doing your best, we all are. I remember verbally savaging ridiculous vegans for their ridiculous and unnatural diet, reacting badly to the implied judgement of their choice --
And now I am here. And I'm one of them. And life is good. And I feel better, happier, stronger for it. And that's all I'm trying to say.
Consider what I have said, over time. Custom and culture are prisons. You may be blinded by your own so that something that might be really good for you and good for other creatures is denied to you.
Which is very human. Standard, in fact.
longship
(40,416 posts)I am not ignorant, however. I just disagree with some of your philosophy.
Nature is simultaneously a wonderful and horrible thing. Charles Darwin was absolutely horrified by the Ichneumonidae, the parasitic wasps whose progeny eat their prey alive. I see none of that here in the chicken farms where I get my eggs. The dairy farms here likewise have free ranging bossies grazing. Although I no longer eat much dairy, except hard cheeses, the cows are treated ethically here. Not everywhere is nature raw tooth and claw. That is how humans can make a difference.
As I wrote above, I eat less meat in my old age. But I am still an omnivore. I buy local because that's what's available here in the national forest. I am happy for that because despite your implication, I do care about ethical treatment of animals. And I feel strongly that eggs and milk do not preclude that. Granted, I eat meat, too -- and fish. But that is my burden, not anybody else's. I don't expect to be maligned for that which the vast proportion of humanity does also. And that which nature does in spades, with far less ethics.
Thank you again. I hope you consider this colloquy was as productive as I did.
Always, with respect.
Nitram
(22,913 posts)development. A boom in the Vitamin B12 manufacturing industry. A thriving animal protein black market springs up.
A biology professor of mine suggested that vegans can get sufficient B12 from the rodent hairs and insect parts that make up a portion of most vegan food products. The FDA's action level for peanut butter is 30 or more insect fragments or one or more rodent hairs per 100 grams.
http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/05/06/29/how_many_insect_parts_and_rodent_hairs_are_allowed_in_your_food.htm