In this forum it is inappropriate to belittle those with religious beliefs or to engage in demeaning or hateful speech toward members of DU who may hold such beliefs.

Express away!

Julie

the atheist version of "hate the sin, not the sinner"...

How so?

Explain.

If one believes in the Easter Bunny, and I say he doesn't exist, how have I belittled that person?

(if one feels stupid afterward, that's their problem)


I would like to add that, personally, I feel religious people get all upset because 1) they've put so much time and energy into the god thing, and 2) when push comes to shove, they really don't believe it as solidly as they might like. It's that "belief in belief" thing Daniel Dennett talks about.

Daniel Dennett, but the mention does pique my interest. I guess I should know of him, but, while I do go through phases where I get interested in what people say about religion and atheism (apparently I'm in one now), I often feel like it's an annoying topic that's forced upon us by people who believe in a bunch of illogical, superstisious nonsense.

You did pick one sentence out of the whole paragraph that is confusing, since just stating that there is no proof of god can be hateful to some believers. But read on:

You can talk all you want about how stupid religious belief is. There's no proscription against that - believers may be offended by it, but that's too bad. I also think that religious belief is silly, and more than a little stupid. It's irrational, foolish, and idiotic, and I won't hesitate to point that out, at least here in the A&A group.

What is considered inappropriate is the demeaning of specific DU members just because they happen to be religious. There's no reason to start a flame war or attack DU believers, especially when done in a group where believers don't belong.

It would be okay to say "that person's beliefs are stupid and silly". Yes, a believer might be offended by that, but that's their problem. It would be inappropriate, though, to say, "that religious guy, DUerPosterX, is a fucking asshole", especially when referring to a fellow DUer.

Like someone said above, attack the belief, not the believer. I'd take it a step further and say, when referring to a DUer, attack their belief, not the believer. If you want to call Pat Robertson a dickhead, you won't see any complaints from me. I think that distinction should be made, because we attack religious people all the time here.

member, I feel more at ease with my ability to abide by the rule. : )

By that, I mean that it's fine to debate the issues, but not to personally attack a poster for whatever his/her beliefs are.

I guess for me the problem is that, as Curmudgeoness acknowledged, there's a fine line involved. A very fine line.

It seems that there's really not a whole hell of a lot of difference between saying "The belief that you hold as sacrosanct and as the defining factor of all life is idiotic" and "You're an idiot for believing that nonsense." But, technically, OK, yes, it is different.

I look at it this way: Should a believer come in here and want to engage in discussion I will talk to them like I talked to my mom. She was a fundamentalist, evangelist clown.

Literally. She dressed up as a clown and ran vacation bible schools for children mostly in Texas but she took a few trips to the Ukraine. Never brought me back any vodka though.

I loved my mom and didn't want to hurt her feelings more than my lack of religion already did so I was mindful of how I spoke with her.

I'm less protective of my little brothers feelings though. But that's more of an I'm the oldest thing than it is a religious thing.

is an ever more devout Catholic, and my Mom wonders if I'm not afraid of getting hit by lightening whenever I say I don't believe in God. But neither of them actually come out and tell me I'm a moron for not believing, so I give them pretty much the same courtesy.

I think it helps a lot that they are both Democrats, even, in many ways, liberals. Aside from my Dad pressuring me and sibs to come to church when we're visiting and he's lectoring, we just don't discuss religion much. I did get pretty insulted when he told me a few years ago that he was sure some day I would "come back to the church." I won't, and I never was enough of a Catholic to "go back" to it. But, I just said he was wrong without telling him how much it angered me that he said it. Then again, he also says some day I'll be mature enough to appreciate opera. That's not gonna happen, wither, but it doesn't piss me off nearly as much.

One of my four sibs is annoying in her religiosity, but I don't see her that much and so I usually let it slide. My other sibs are all atheist or may as well be. All their kids were put through the early Catholic ceremonies, more as a social/cultural thing. None are church goers.

It's my parents' siblings and their kids who I've gotten into some major disagreements with. Almost all of them are not too bright, right wing, and religious. It was them sending around right wing emails and me having the sheer audacity to respond to them that initiated most of the blow-ups.

Over time, I have found myself becoming less and less tolerant of religious people's disrespect of my right not to have their religion thrust upon me. I think it has a lot to do with the increased denials of the separation of church and state and the hateful, xenophobic, misogynist nature of religious groups.

My mother and step-father were very conservative, fundamentalist republicans so it was difficult to be around them for any length of time without "getting into" it...my mom was quite a bit more mellow when he wasn't around though so I was able to enjoy the last years of her life with relative peace (She would come to visit us at christmas time and left him at home). Now that she is gone I have no reason to talk to him at all.

Conversely, my Aunt and Uncle (mom's sister) are very liberal democrats and very active in their methodist church. Both are retired and their lives revolve around doing things in and for the church. I love visiting with them even though it's obvious they are believers with every second I spend there - somehow it seems different - I guess it is because I agree with their politics and because, even though their brand of religion is obvious, it is never judgmental. One of their closest friends is an older gay man who I have known all my life - I consider him as much family as them. MY mom knew him all her life too (He grew up in the same town with my mom and her sister) but after she and stepfather got so religious they never spoke of him again. The thing is, I'm sure she wanted to - he was her childhood friend - but my step-asshole wouldn't let her and they were far enough gone into to fundie-ism that what he said was law.


ANYWay, I think it's good to remember that even though there are a lot of believers here at DU, they do share our liberal democrat beliefs and we should try to be respectful. I think it is perfectly possible to debate spiritedly and remain respectful. I'm not always capable but it IS possible.

We need more members like yourself who have a healthy respect for fellow DUers who still choose to believe in a deity. We don't have to agree with them about religion, but we can embrace them as kindred political spirits. For most of us, life is not about what others personally believe, but how we treat each other. Respect.