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edcantor

(325 posts)
Tue May 29, 2012, 08:38 PM May 2012

Resource request:

Are there any easily accessible web links to:

The number of mythologies with flood stories?
The number of mythologies with virgin births?
The number of mythologies with rising from the dead?
The number of mythologies of religious figures who performed miracles?
The number of mythologies where a god or goddess punished the sinners?

Just wondering if there's something anyone has come across that sort of summarizes all this with clear links to the actual mythologies involved. I know a little about one or two of the flood stories and virgin births, but not much else specifically. I know they were/are out there and I'd like to have a reference to go to when talking to my doubting relatives.

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Warpy

(111,267 posts)
1. You're going to have to do your own thing on this one
Tue May 29, 2012, 08:57 PM
May 2012

Much of the stuff is online and a great deal of it at Wikipedia, alone. While Joseph Campbell summarized some of the stuff in his books, you'll likely do better consulting Google yourself.

 

edcantor

(325 posts)
2. If I do that, (and I'm not afraid of research), I will
Tue May 29, 2012, 09:07 PM
May 2012

have to publish it somewhere on the web, because I'm sure I'm not the only one who would value such a documentation.

Warpy

(111,267 posts)
3. Quite right. I'd like to see it, too.
Tue May 29, 2012, 09:11 PM
May 2012

I just have a bit too much to cope with right now to do it myself.

 

edcantor

(325 posts)
4. Right! I just don't want to "reinvent the wheel" if
Tue May 29, 2012, 09:14 PM
May 2012

IF it is already out there on the web someplace.

Honestly, I'm quite surprised what I have found so far.

It either goes to one of the myths or another one, virgin birth, floods, etc., but nothing tying all of them together with ample references.

EvolveOrConvolve

(6,452 posts)
5. I'm surprised too that it's not out there somewhere
Tue May 29, 2012, 11:03 PM
May 2012

It's a resource I'd like to see also. Maybe someone will be along who can point us in the right direction.

 

edcantor

(325 posts)
6. A couple days of primary research will be in order here.
Tue May 29, 2012, 11:08 PM
May 2012

I'm up for that.

Then, maybe, I can do a web page, with links, or even get to Youtube and go off on some of the zealots who don't know history before the time of the Bible.

Lots of people in the world think all the story began with the Bible. Sorry guys and gals, this was probably percolating for another 3 thousand years before this particular Christian story got going from Nazareth, to Rome and beyond around the world.

 

edcantor

(325 posts)
8. How about if we all feed you links? Feed them with...
Tue May 29, 2012, 11:20 PM
May 2012

summaries..

Like

"There are 7 documented stories of virgin births in various literature pre-dating Jesus."

And then go on to give you the links.

Would that kind of thing work?

Or would we perhaps need to summarize all 7 of them, and give links... either way would be fun.

EvolveOrConvolve

(6,452 posts)
9. Actually, it does sound like a fun idea
Tue May 29, 2012, 11:27 PM
May 2012

I probably won't be available much until the middle of June (too much on my plate at work), but if you started putting together the research, I could begin posting it to a site at that point. I'd take care of the technical details of the wiki. Whaddya say?

I'm sure we'd get some good contributions from the group here, too.

 

edcantor

(325 posts)
11. I'm hoping this is an effort from many people around the world, or...
Tue May 29, 2012, 11:48 PM
May 2012

at least 15-25 people who post here on A+A!

I think we might want to divide it up, eventually, have some virgin specialists, or some flood specialists, etc.

 

edcantor

(325 posts)
10. Actually, I think this is a TREMENDOUS IDEA!
Tue May 29, 2012, 11:30 PM
May 2012

The Atheist WIKI..

40,000 years of religious burials and other events and mythologies in the history of modern pre-historic and historic humankind, including all known references to religious mythologies, from China to Central America, and everywhere in between.

I have a feeling that 5000 to 10,000 years of religion, of stories of floods, virgin births, and reincarnations, etc. etc. are being kept from the world population by sheer ignorance and arrogance of the Judeo-Christian predominance of the web today.

I think I read somewhere that there are over 100 creation stories of Native Americans and First Nation people, from Alaska to Central America, and perhaps more if we can research South American folk, (hard to do, they died off in such large numbers or became part of Spanish colonial culture so fast, in less than 8o years). Imagine, if you can, that you are a First Nation person in what is now Kansas or Iowa, do you ever go as far as the Rockies, a journey of up to 600 miles, do you ever see a mountain?

If we could get 20-30 stories of virgin births, pre-dating Jesus, stories of floods, which, obviously happen everywhere except on mountainsides.

There's a lot of the last 10,000 years of religious phenomena to explore here, to compare and contrast. I think it's more valuable to society than contemplating how many angels dance on the head of a pin, as our Catholic ancestors did for hundreds of years in the dark ages and even up until the last few years.

Bad Thoughts

(2,524 posts)
12. Arrogance?
Wed May 30, 2012, 12:32 AM
May 2012
I have a feeling that 5000 to 10,000 years of religion, of stories of floods, virgin births, and reincarnations, etc. etc. are being kept from the world population by sheer ignorance and arrogance of the Judeo-Christian predominance of the web today.

If you don't mind my asking, what is particularly Jewish about this arrogance? Jews don't believe that the Tanakh is the only valid religious narrative, and to some extent accept the syncretism of their own religion. Moreover, why is it "Judeo-Christian" and not "Western"? There were centuries of scholars who dismissed biblical narratives yet still believed in their originality. What was produced in other areas of the world was simply unworthy.

Anyway, if you want some resources, you might start with the Ancient History Sourcebook (online), which contains many useful fragments of myths and religious writings. There's also The Internet Sacred Texts Archive (online). If you get very deep into this, I'd recommend reading Anthony Grafton's two volume biography of Joseph Scaliger (16th century philologist). You should also read some symbolic anthropology.

Good luck!

ETA: You might also look at James Lockhart, who discusses the translation of the Nahuas' worldview into a Christian mentality.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
16. Simply put:
Thu May 31, 2012, 02:33 AM
May 2012
If you don't mind my asking, what is particularly Jewish about this arrogance? Jews don't believe that the Tanakh is the only valid religious narrative, and to some extent accept the syncretism of their own religion.


I suggest you read what he said again. It certainly doesn't equate to "The Jews are arrogant."

Moreover, why is it "Judeo-Christian" and not "Western"?


Because he isn't talking about convincing people Zeus, Thor, Samhain, Baal, or Anubis aren't real. He is talking about counterapologetics which are directly applicable to the Old (Judeo) and New (Christian) Testaments. Ergo: Judeo-Christian.

Bad Thoughts

(2,524 posts)
17. No, I believe you've misunderstood me
Thu May 31, 2012, 05:20 AM
May 2012
I suggest you read what he said again. It certainly doesn't equate to "The Jews are arrogant."

I don't need to. I believe my question reflects an understanding of the perceived originality of these narratives, to which I responded that their originality is not much of a problem in Judaism as in Christianity.
[quote]Because he isn't talking about convincing people Zeus, Thor, Samhain, Baal, or Anubis aren't real. He is talking about counterapologetics which are directly applicable to the Old (Judeo) and New (Christian) Testaments. Ergo: Judeo-Christian.[/quote]
He is talking about the supposed authority of the Bible (Old Testatment is not quite the same things as the Tanakh, and embodies a completely different hermeneutics) based on the belief in their originality, to which I responded that Western Civilization reflects, in general, an attitude that suggests that even when their narratives are in doubt, that they are still original. It is the reason why Greece is still considered the cradle of civilization in spite of the number of innovations that came from other early cultures.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
18. I doubt Orthodox, or even Conservative Jews would agree with that assessment...
Thu May 31, 2012, 11:28 PM
May 2012

... but that aside, I still think your argument is fairly petty. "Judeo-Christian" is a word in common usage, used to denote the overlap between Judaism and Christianity. "Western" is an umbrella term which denotes a litany of qualities, some of which find their origins in Christianity, but many more of which do not. Of the two terms, I would argue "Judeo-Christian" is more apropos.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
13. Wikipedia has articles on most of those things.
Wed May 30, 2012, 11:36 AM
May 2012

Here's the one about flood myths:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths

Virgin birth mythology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births

And so on. Some of these may not be 100% accurate, but it's a good starting point for questions like yours. Additional links on those pages will produce more information.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
15. If you are looking to get into counterapologetics...
Wed May 30, 2012, 11:59 PM
May 2012
Iron Chariots is a good starting point. It was founded by Matt Dillahunty of "The Atheist Experience" fame.

Also, I would suggest you check out back episodes of the podcast Irreligiosophy. They have a number of episodes dedicated to, as they call it, plagiarism, and most of what I know of Panbabylonism I heard first on their show. I should warn you, however, one of the co-hosts tends to make tongue-in-cheek racist/sexist remarks. The informational portion of the show is very good, however, if you can get past Leighton's crass attempts at "humor".

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