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rayofreason

(2,259 posts)
Sun Apr 15, 2012, 11:59 AM Apr 2012

Causality vs. Magic

One of the features of unscientific approaches is magical thinking. In magic, associations are made that have no causal link, such as if X poisons me then taking X diluted by a factor of 10e10 will cure me, or a tiger is strong, so ingesting powered tiger penis with give me tiger-strength sexual power. This kind of thinking is also behind astrology (broadly defined) - objects in the sky are amazing, so their patterns and motions must tell us something profound.

Causality, however, posits mechanisms. An important feature of a scientific view is that correlation and causality are two different things, and the difference comes down to mechanism. This notion of mechanism is very strong, and magic has attempted to take on its trappings as a way to justify itself in the modern, scientific world. No where is this impulse stronger that in "alternative medicine", where ridiculous notions such as "biophotons" as the agents of "touch therapy" (where no one is actually touched) are uncritically accepted by those who have bought into the magic, but who feel the need to justify their magic with the appearance of science. Another bit of magic in search of mechanism is magnet therapy where the claim is that magnets draw blood to the area to promote healing. The fact that hemoglobin is weakly diamagnetic seems to have been forgotten.

Modern magical thinking in medicine has most of its roots in late-18th and 19th century German philosophy and mysticism. That is actually when homeopathy was born. Some garbage from that era, such as phrenology, has been discarded (for the time being), but other pseudoscientific notions (including Marxist religion masquerading as scientific socialism) still persist.

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Causality vs. Magic (Original Post) rayofreason Apr 2012 OP
Nice post longship Apr 2012 #1
Other common "magical" beliefs... ZombieHorde Apr 2012 #2
Nice list. MadrasT Apr 2012 #3
No, that's solipsism frankie May 2012 #4
You and I may personally value human life, but human life does not have inherent value. ZombieHorde May 2012 #5

longship

(40,416 posts)
1. Nice post
Tue Apr 17, 2012, 03:51 PM
Apr 2012

I don't think too many in the skeptic group here are unaware of this stuff, but I am happy to support it nonetheless.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
2. Other common "magical" beliefs...
Mon Apr 23, 2012, 01:52 PM
Apr 2012

Inherent value
Inherent meaning
Human rights
Governments existing outside of our imaginations
Countries existing outside of our imaginations
Good and evil existing outside of our emotions

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
3. Nice list.
Mon Apr 23, 2012, 02:51 PM
Apr 2012

People get really upset when you try to tell them nothing actually has inherent value or meaning. And that "human rights" are just their lofty idea of the "should be" world.

frankie

(53 posts)
4. No, that's solipsism
Tue May 1, 2012, 11:38 AM
May 2012

@ZH: Unhelpful navel gazing.

Beyond the basic scientific axioms (uniformity, logic, etc), I am willing to take as a postulate that (human) life has (positive) value. If so: rights, good, evil, etc, derive from there.

You can choose to believe that nations don't exist, but they can choose to jail or kill you if you act on that belief in ways they don't like. I don't think you're going to win that argument.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
5. You and I may personally value human life, but human life does not have inherent value.
Tue May 1, 2012, 11:49 AM
May 2012

The value you perceive is coming from you, and not the people themselves.

You can choose to believe that nations don't exist, but they can choose to jail or kill you if you act on that belief in ways they don't like.


You seem to be confusing two different things. A nation is an abstract concept. It can motivate people to kill or lock people up, but it cannot actually kill or lock anyone up. People do things. People can lock up others in cages or kill them.

The abstract concept of nations may motivate people, just like the abstract concepts of Religion motivate people, but the nations themselves are just a thought in our imaginations.
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