2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumJohn Heilmann puts it bluntly: Chelsea lied.
And Halperin said he was stunned and had never seen anything like it. This is going to backfire.
Go to the 4 minute mark.
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/videos/2016-01-12/chelsea-clinton-joins-the-attack-as-sanders-rises
ram2008
(1,238 posts)-- President Obama just now at the SOTU.
We do it by not letting stuff like this slide.
lewebley3
(3,412 posts)he wouldn't do: He is becoming a joke with truth
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)You forgot the "S"
"SHe is becoming a joke with truth"
There, fixed it for you.
And lay off the Koolaid for a while.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)chervilant
(8,267 posts)"They" being the pitiable few who refuse to see how badly the Clinton campaign has stumbled in the past few days. Chelsea should have done her research before she attempted to denigrate Senator Sanders. Her deceit has hurt more than it's helped.
BTW, I saw my first political bumper sticker on my way home from work--stopped at my local market. I actually met the person driving the vehicle. He told me that his grandson is the chair of our state's Young Democrats, and "they're all supporting Bernie."
I told him I am, too, and I appreciate very much his lovely "Bernie for President 2016!" sticker.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)The ACA was the first step, as we were told, and Sanders wants to go to step two. But Chelsea is telling people that Sanders wants to dismantle the ACA. In fact he wants to make it much better by getting the insurance industry out.
Those that care about the health care of the 99% should be appalled at these total misrepresentations.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)THe clintons just screwed themselves
Sending Princess CLinton to do some dirty-work? Really? I trust that crowed even less now..
Making it more difficult to even be able to hold my nose and vote for her.
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)It so easily disproved. I've seen a few pundits call it a lie.
cali
(114,904 posts)because she's the daughter of a former president and a candidate for president? She's not 12 anymore. Or perhaps they think no one will call her out because she's pregnant.
....but you would think she would be more careful. It will be replayed over and over. Hard to walk back.
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)by sending her out to peddle lies, knowing that they were lies. Hillary had to know that this would put her daughter under extreme scrutiny with potential fallout if Chelsea was given a litany of bullshit to spew--which she was.
Who in the hell does that to their daughter?
Left Coast2020
(2,397 posts)I don't know if you picked it up or not but a linguist would probably tell you that is a stress statement-meaning, because her mom is falling behind in the polls, you have to think of something verbally to say even if you know it's not true. Even if she was coached on what to say, she lies--under stress--in an attempt to derail Bernie's positions.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)As if trying to remember her script. It was a disgusting performance.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)couple decides to show her 1% philosophy by attacking Sanders' attempts to help workers. What a shocking development.
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)when a Democratic candidate stoops to such fabrications. HRC is going to continue to slide and Bernie will get another money bomb as he did after the hack accusations.
Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)And why do you care? You're not a Democrat.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)and not a Socialist Democrat. Bernie will destroy the party to follow a unicorn.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)and not a Socialist Democrat.
You think you're qualified to kick us out of the party even when you can't get your terms straight?
Bernie is a Democratic Socialist who became a Democrat.
He's running for the Democratic nomination and thousands of Dems are supporting him.
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)Just consider the source.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I just wanted to see if he would actually say we don't belong anymore.
I guess he must not want our votes if Hillary wins the nomination.
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)and who doesn't. Supporters like this only hurt their candidate.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)Smell that, BMUS? Its the smell of desperation. His candidate is losing so he needs to attack everything and everyone that isnt his candidate or FOR his candidate.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts).... it's so desperate that he's bringing up old, defunct, debunked GOP-originated smears the Clintonites tried way back at the beginning of the primary.
Didn't work back then. Why they think it will work now is beyond comprehension.
What next? Will they try the "VT is a small state" or "Bernie doesn't get black people" baloney again?
(the floundering "Bernie's a gun nut" crap has already brought up the "VT is a small state" thing again. Pitiful!)
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)This place reeks of desperation today.
marew
(1,588 posts)You are absolutely right!
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)That took nerve, I'm glad others see it too.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)Ronald Reagan but calling out whether a person is a party member or not is BULLSHIT. Also, anyone who considers socialism as a bad thing tells me that they don't know what socialism is and that they probably lean more right than is typical for our party philosophy such as it is considering the third way shit storm we have suffered for thirty years. Socialism DOES NOT equal communism and only a dim bulb would equate the two.
Read up on what and who we are as Dems. We are the oldest political party in America formed around Thomas Jefferson about 1796 to protect him and his policies. Even though our name may have evolved our politics are rock solid. We aren't conservative and we embrace socialism whether we call it that or not. The next time you call a cop, send your kid to a public school, go to the library and use public roads and transportation thank a fucking socialist.
Jeez. Low information people really cheese me off.
BigBearJohn
(11,410 posts)roguevalley
(40,656 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)chervilant
(8,267 posts)HUNDREDS of thousands of Dems are supporting Bernie. (I'm sure you meant that, and I think the snarky person to whom you responded needs to know that HUNDREDS of thousands of Dems support Bernie.)
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I think he felt the Bern anyway but that needs to be emphasized!
chervilant
(8,267 posts)HRC supporters who are excusing Chelsea's disingenuous remarks. It's just beyond pathetic.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I'd be stunned if they admitted Chelsea lied.
napi21
(45,806 posts)Almost everything Bernie is pushing for is move America back to the days of FDR politics for the PEOPLE instead of the the big money guys. I actually see todays Dems as being the imposters, and Bernie the real Dem!
stage left
(2,966 posts)As far as his principles go, Bernie's more a Democrat than most Democrats.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)You've got some very nasty garbage here.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)Democratic party by selling out our ideals for MONEY.
Bernie is exactly the same kind of Democrat FDR and Kennedy were.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Hmmm...I've been a dem all my long life and I've never been a corporatist dem. And now we finally have a socialist dem stepping up and acting like a real dem (first time in years) and we are so excited...and you say we are not dems? I think you don't even know what a dem is supposed to be. Was FDR not a dem? He was a socialist dem, if ever there was one. And we've had a couple others as well.
I don't know...maybe you are too young to know what dems used to be, and how far the party has drifted to the right, away from what true dems are. I guess I can understand that for some younger inexperienced or historically uneducated dems.
But if you are a corporatist dem, and know you are, and are deliberately trying to eliminate true progressive dems from the party, you really should reevaluate your label. You really might be better off in the republican party.
What most corporatist dems sound like to me is just plain scared...scared they might lose their place on the money train because the people (the working class people) are furious with politics as usual and no representation in government, and the dem party drifting ever rightward, and they are rising up...and yeah, it scares the pants off you, doesn't it?
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)I feel sorry for you, and your candidate.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Please provide something to back up that false accusation. We on DU know this poster. I don't recall ever seeing you before. Are YOU a Democrat?
You appear to be unfamiliar with with our Democratic process. Sanders is running, as he has every right to do in this Democracy, as a Democrat in this race. If you do not like our democratic process then go right ahead and work to change it.
I am signing up previously non-voters, Repubs and others to join OUR PARTY to vote for our Dem Candidate. Show me the LAW that prevents ANY citizen of this country from running as a candidate for ANY PARTY they choose???
The DNC has Sanders listed as a Dem candidate. Wise of them to do so since he is bringing untold numbers of people INTO a party that has LOST over 10% of its membership since 2008.
Sanders is one of the best representatives of OUR PARTY, and yes I AM A DEMOCRAT, to come along in a long time.
You owe someone a huge apology. Your attack was totally unfounded and shameful.
AllyCat
(16,218 posts)Also a Dem here who votes Dem...especially a candidate that supports democratic ideals.
cui bono
(19,926 posts).
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)Amazing isn't it? For 8 years the candidate paraded up and down corporate America looking for support and money while ignoring the people these same corporations have been sucking dry and then has the nerve to attack single payer health care that she herself supported just seconds before she sent her daughter on stage to lie about it! That's no Democrat!
Marty McGraw
(1,024 posts)To a day of it's more principled roots. World turned upside-down when the greedy 'sliming their way to the top' insurgents of the past 30yrs get to dictate who a who are not of the true democratic belief.
hollowdweller
(4,229 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Intelligence runs in the Clinton family. Too bad compassion, and decency, and honesty do not.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Change I can believe in.
Marty McGraw
(1,024 posts)be apt to say that she made her statement 'HedgeHeartidly'
wonder if that is a real word. it probably should be.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)A word that her clueless daughter could also appreciate.
monmouth4
(9,709 posts)Punkingal
(9,522 posts)They just usually let people lie and don't say anything.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)OnlinePoker
(5,725 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,757 posts)Not many college students hop from college to their first job making $100,000 a year. I guess she still considers them the years where she had a rough go in life, so she knows all about the plight of the middle class.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)When both your parents are documented liars, what chance do you have?
demwing
(16,916 posts)having parents that lie is one thing, but watching them as they get away with those lies, and becoming fabulously wealthy and powerful as a result?
That has to make mark on a person's soul.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)In this life or the next.
Perhaps she will return as a... praying mantis, who knows.
demwing
(16,916 posts)I'm referring to that part of her psyche that is home to her moral and ethical center, but yeah, reincarnation as a bug is cool as hell!
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Dem2
(8,168 posts)CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)It's not just Republican taking points. Many, many Democrats feel this way about the Clintons. You've just demonstrated why she would a tragedy as our Democratic nominee. So many people--from all sides of the political spectrum have significant issues with them.
She'd be a loser in the GE with not enough support to cobble together a victory.
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)Democrats support Hillary Clinton by overwhelming margins particularly liberal Democrats.
Bill Clinton was the most popular president in several decades. He remains incredibly popular not just in the US, but internationally as well.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Something that I hope Bernie Sanders will be able to begin to change.
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)The party numbers have been eroding ever since the Dem party traded it populist roots for 3rd way politics. If you want a snapshot of where the party is at with Clinton representing it look at the national polls. People thirty and under won't bother to show up for Hillary and 60% of the nation doesn't think Hillary is trustworthy..
Sorry those are the facts....
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)and most people don't even know who the hell he is because he has spent that time doing jack all about anything. Look at any poll If we want an electoral blowout then we should choose Sanders as our nominee. It would be the ultimate gift to the GOP.
Hillary Clinton will decimate whichever one of the clowns the GOP decides to put up.
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)A lot of people didn't know who he was, but that has changed...
Sander's does better against Republicans than Hillary does.. So I'm not sure what poll you're looking at. In the real world Hillary's trust factor is in the tank.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Is it cognitive dissonance that keeps you mired in these misrepresentations?
All the polls I've seen have Bernie Sanders decimating ALL the Republicans, by larger margins than those for HRC. And, lots more people know about Bernie, now. LOTS more.
Feel the Bern, NYC Liberal. Senator Sanders is a much better candidate for the next President of our nation.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)I am stating facts.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)Not playing your game, sorry.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Hillary's name is firmly associated with dishonesty. No one is going to forget that.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)by a sock puppet.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)Brilliant.
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)Any criticism of Hillary gets us tarred with a label most of us consider repugnant?
Right.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)Just fabulous.
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)Remarkable!
Phenomenal!
Tremendous!
Amazing!
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)roguevalley
(40,656 posts)a public person and entering the dance. She cannot be sheltered from her remarks because she is a public figure but expect dissent from that because she's still 10 for some people.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Bubzer
(4,211 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Come back when you're able to answer.
*What Health-Care committees has she worked on?
*How many speeches has she made on the House or Senate floor proposing improvements to our system?
*How many bills has she sponsored or co-sponsored concerning HealthCare?
*How many public speeches has she given on the topic of Health Care?
What are these "chops" you speak of?
...Now, if Chelsea wants to give a speech about marrying into Goldman-Sachs,
THERE she has some "chops".
green917
(442 posts)Couldn't have said it better myself! My immediate question about all of this when i heard it was, "why the hell should the American people listen to anything chelsea clinton has to say about policy? She's barely out of college, has held no political office, and just got her 1st major job (for a hedge fund that has a vested interest in making sure senator sanders doesn't become our next president)...in short, she doesn't have any chops.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)fbc
(1,668 posts)Do they not realize the people of Iowa are going to see through this and it is going to backfire on them?
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I know I'm just stating the obvious, but it looks really stark to type the words out, and then to consider that lots of Hillaryites are conducting daily loyalty oaths, making sure we'll vote for this person. I don't think they understand how little use I have for liars.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Gene Debs
(582 posts)Divernan
(15,480 posts)Brings a tear to the eye doesn't it? One generation of lying Clintons passing the torch to the next generation! We are all truly honored to be present at this historic moment!
What about a fund raising album of Clintons' Greatest Lies!
Who could ever forget, "I did not have sex with that woman."? Or the always appropriate, "Who you gonna believe baby? Me or your lying eyes?"
Or where you were when you saw the video of Hillary talking about landing in Bosnia under sniper fire?
And how our hearts stopped when Hillary said Chelsea Clinton was jogging around the World Trade Center on 9/11.
The nation mourned when she told us her family was dead broke when they left the White House.
Gene Debs
(582 posts)bronzed like their baby shoes.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Did you see that sad face and those big puppy dog eyes? She doesn't have the tough (cold) presentation that her Mom has. Is that what they are trying to sell by putting her on the stand...oh sweet little Chelsea...she loves her mama and is only trying to help her.
Geeze...she doesn't even have the chops to be accurate or forceful in addressing a crowd. She will never be a politician...but she's trying. Oh how she's trying. Don't give up your day job Chelsea.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)Wallow in dirt perhaps, they seem to be very good at that...
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
demwing
(16,916 posts)We should expect integrity and honesty.
It really pisses me off that Bernie is considered an anomaly. In a better world, Bernie would just be another progressive wave in an ocean of people of outstanding character.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)You do realize that we aren't actually supposed to strive for truthiness, right?
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)when speaking in the public sphere. It's called civility. Civility and civil discussion has left the room when "Liar" comes in. Civility (in the public sense of "civil" doesn't require much, it doesn't require politeness, but it does require at a minimum the presumption that all parties to the discussion are acting in good faith toward the same end, which is the betterment of society. "Liar" is the end of civility.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)This lie is obvious, blatant, and requires believing everyone listening to her is an utter moron. And she's got a masters in public health, so she has to know she is lying.
These actions do not deserve soft rhetoric.
And with a lie this clumsy and blatant, it is obvious that this is not the case.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)From how I've heard him handle himself in the past, he'd say she spoke carelessly and was obviously ignorant of the facts. Bernie is a good example of civility. He is an example of what I mean that civility doesn't require deference or even politeness. But it does require a recognition of multiple points of view.
What normally happens to discussions on DU when "liar!" is brought in? A good chance of an alert and a hide. Why is it that "liar" is un-civil in one-on-one discussions here, but perfectly okay when talking about Chelsea Clinton or Jane Sanders?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Believe it or not, I'm capable of forming thoughts and opinions without the aid or approval of someone in a leadership position.
Civility is not a one-way street. These lies are a lack of civility, and do not deserve to be met with civility.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Only that Bernie Sanders exemplifies civility and statesmanship.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Really? You weren't suggesting I take my cues from other people when you posted that I should take my cues from Sanders?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)stage left
(2,966 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)So flip this. Sanders sends someone out that flat out lies about a position of Clinton. How do you respond?
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,335 posts)Politicians and their surrogates go on TV and tell bald faced lies. The media is too "polite" and "civilized" to call them on their bull shit. 23% of the population is fence-post stupid and will believe the lies.
Forget that. Call them on their lies.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)Says the most uncivil poster on the thread ...
Goodbye
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)THAT was the end of civility. And if what you say is true then she is rightfully being called a liar since she ended civility.
Civility either ends when it actually ended or what you are saying means nothing. You can't make that statement and not think it ended when she lied publicly.
.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)When they deliberately lie about Sander's positions, they are not.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I have nothing against you personally, but I don't plan to be civil to the Clinton campaign. To the extent my civility ever existed, it died this morning when I read the news.
demwing
(16,916 posts)How the hell is that remotely like anything that's gone on here? Frankly, your post is ridiculous.
FailureToCommunicate
(14,020 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)in yelling 'liar". And he did it in a formal setting.
How on earth can you possibly think that calling someone who is actually lying, and obviously knowingly since she is a smart woman, a liar? That is just stating a fact. It is not yelling "liar" at POTUS who is speaking at a formal and televised event just because you think you disagree with him but in fact you would say that no matter what POTUS said.
Why are you defending someone who lies? Is that what you want to see more of? Lying about other candidates?
.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Did they heckle Chelsea?
I must have missed that part.
INdemo
(6,994 posts)not many ways you can twist this around to prove otherwise.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Not a good thing. Whatever happens in the future will still be a lie.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,414 posts)Thanks for the thread, cali.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)per wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Clinton
I'll trust Chelsea before any media stooge.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,869 posts)What's your point?
cali
(114,904 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Lordy lordy, lordy..
cali
(114,904 posts)Just like her lying parents. Disgraceful.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Besides, Chelsea's degrees should imply she knows she's lying....
it just makes it worse.
green917
(442 posts)The fact that she has a degree in a relevant subject just shows that she knew she was lying (as if her body language didn't cover that already).
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)I want Bernie and Trump GONE!
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)demwing
(16,916 posts)so that together, we can make this country better, safer, and more economically and civilly just.
Me, I'm not so fucking nice.
cali
(114,904 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)And comparing those two belies your own ignorance.
Loudestlib
(980 posts)n/t
Hoppy
(3,595 posts)She fuckin' lied.
George II
(67,782 posts)....will get you condemned by the DU swarm/masses.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shocking concept for some around here, but it actually works pretty well.
WIProgressive88
(314 posts)Legitimate criticism is fine. Chelsea did not offer legitimate criticism; she lied. You're smart enough to know the difference.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Oh please.
stop projecting your anointed heroine worship onto those of us concerned about issues, and not name recognition.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Because if you do, you're going to get called a fucking liar. The good news in that moral, though, is that if you do lie and are Clinton's daughter all kinds of people will defend you to their last breath rather than say it was a shitty thing to do. So there's that.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)She knows this is untrue.
I am stunned HRC'S team asked her to do this. It is a waste of a very valuable resource. That said both she and her mom should have had the sense and grace to see this as something they should not do and not have any of her people do.
tex-wyo-dem
(3,190 posts)Stupid, stupid, stupid move by the Clinton campaign. They've taken, as you so well put it, a "valuable resource" and in one fell swoop wasted it. And the tragedy is Chelsea's reputation is, forevermore, soiled.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Where has Sanders expressed interest in sustaining the ACA? Because I think we both know that it isn't going to survive ten minutes in any administration that doesn't make protecting it a top priority.
tex-wyo-dem
(3,190 posts)And tragic. With that educational background, she should (sans work and life experience) close to an expert in public health. I'm sure she took more than one course in public health policy, so she knew what she said was not accurate or truthful.
Really stupid, stupid move by the Clinton campaign.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Not even kind of telling--very telling.
George II
(67,782 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)And it's going to backfire in a big way.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)DU lost their shit over MSNBC giving them their own show?
cali
(114,904 posts)Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)that Sanders wants to dismantle ACA and leave people with no option for health care? Really? You think that's what single payer does? Or do you think that Sanders isn't pushing for single payer? Because it's either one of those things or she's a liar. Hint: she's a liar.
Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)First using a couple of Republicans to make a point. Then calling Chelsea a liar and saying she learned from the best. Chelsea did not lie Bernie does want to blow up the ACA and replace it with something that will never happen.
He said this on Sundays Meet the Press.
Bernie Sanders said, I want to move from Obamacare Sunday on Meet the Press.
All Chelsea did was tell the crowd what Sanders has been saying and your hatred won't make that a lie.
cali
(114,904 posts)It runs in the family.
Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)Who knows what he will do?
cali
(114,904 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)uponit7771
(90,359 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)As am I, it's a bandaid on a bullet hole - better than nothing but it won't save the patient.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)So glad you came out ... Good riddance
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I can document several of Hillary Clinton's lies.
You can't document any Sanders lies; you're left with empty phrases like "full of shit" with nothing to back it.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)This is from Bernie's website: I took the two most relevant
Medicaid: Until comprehensive universal healthcare is passed, we must expand and improve the Medicaid program.
Medicare: We must expand Medicare for All by creating a single-payer health-care system for every American.
I think what Bernie misses here is the process of going to what he calls modest steps by Obamacare to a universal single payer healthcare system.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)not capable of living in the world of reality. Claiming she did not lie is an outrageous lie as the lie itself. The only way one can say that she did not lie and are not lying themselves when they make that absurd claim is if they are not capable of processing reality.
stage left
(2,966 posts)is not advocating that Medicare should be dismantled. Obviously.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)The lesson Camp Clinton learned in 2008 was they lost to Obama because they didn't go negative in time and now they plan to "take out Bernie" early,....but it might be too late.
........sheeze......
Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)uponit7771
(90,359 posts).... reason he couldn't gen up even in his home state not less have the energy to gin up around DC.
Sanders isn't the leader he's called others to be
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)The state legislature couldn't keep it funded, for assorted reasons, and it was discontinued.
You know, you could look stuff like this up.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)The people in the states where Bernie's campaign is in full force, think Bernie is a fabulous leader. In fact, the more they get to know Bernie, the more they want him to become the next President of the United States.
Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #55)
Post removed
marmar
(77,090 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It was to symbolize the we were stubborn and couldn't be budged an inch.
That's a tradition to be proud of.
Putting Social Security on the table for some "grand bargain" is not in keeping with that tradition.
Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #99)
Post removed
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)I'm a sweetheart.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)He believes they will do what's right for the good of the country but it's only now starting to sink in that Republicans don't CARE about what's good for the country.
They're more interested in keeping the mythology of the Reagan Era alive.
Joe Shlabotnik
(5,604 posts)It works out great: for Republicans. Ask Bill.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Samantha
(9,314 posts)health care insurance plan. I remember when she was just a young child, and her mother was so protective of her when they lived in the White House. She wanted her daughter to have as normal a life as possible. And the press tried to accommodate those wishes. Unfortunately, the protective, nurturing instinct a mother has for a child, even when that child has become an adult, failed to hold in the Clinton household. And it truly pained me to see Chelsea making the same gestures as her Mom as she spoke, delivering a disingenuous picture of Bernie Sanders' plans for our future healthcare services.
I am very serious here -- this is not political.
The painful thing is obviously the Sanders' campaign would correct the record on the Senator's plans to redesign our health care programs into a single-payer Medicare for all plan. So what was the point of the lie?
I immediately thought of this man:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/hillary-clinton-mark-penn-2016
I have no link, no clues, no inside information. When I asked myself, "Who exactly is capable of such a stupid, appalling idea of asking Chelsea to step out and lie about Senator Sanders' policies, I immediately had a suspect. This was the type of lie designed to instill fear into those planning on voting for Senator Sanders because to do so would put their health care best interests at risk. These types of elements: lying, instilling fear into voters and doing so calmly without flinching are hallmarks of Mark Penn's work. It appears to me his fingerprints are all over this.
So perhaps he doesn't formally work for the Hillary Clinton campaign this time around (did you read that link?) except to advise her on polling, but considering the history of the relationship, I do believe he is the one Hillary might consult if she were desperate. She just might feel desperate since the MSM is now all over the place saying she just might lose in both Iowa and New Hampshire, and that just might prod her to listen to Penn's ideas....
I just have a hard time believing Hillary Clinton for her own self-serving reasons allowed Chelsea to step out and lie to the American people. I saw the video but could not believe it. And it is a real shame.
Sam
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)it DOES give the Clinton campaign a bit of an out because they can certainly claim that Hillary, the candidate, didn't make the charges but rather Chelsea who, not being a politician herself, simply got things a little mixed up. A seasoned politician always leaves themselves an out, ie plausible deniability, just in case things go south as it appears to have happened here.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)"His plan would take Medicare and Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance Program [CHIP] and the Affordable Care Act health-care insurance and private employer health insurance and he would take that all together and send health insurance to the states, turning over your and my health insurance to governors," Hillary Clinton said Monday. "I don't believe number one we should be starting over. We had enough of a fight to get to the Affordable Care Act. So I dont want to rip it up and start over."
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/01/12/fighting-dirty-clintons-inflammatory-distortion-sanders-single-payer-plan
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Yep, that qualifies as a lie.
Sounds like something a Republican would say, it's a shame Bernie's getting fragged by a Democrat.
demwing
(16,916 posts)or dismantle it?
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)50 secs into the video
"I am for single payer,.... Obamacare is a good republican program"
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/24/bernie-sanders-obamacare-is-a-good-republican-program/
cali
(114,904 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)He wants something better, not worse.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... has to pay a bit of attention to Sanders, Jesus, Giah, America, the world...
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I want single payer healthcare.
What you and I want is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... isn't promoting something better.
Somehow "Obamacare is a good republican program" means he's all for it...
Kinda like "its time Obama face a primary challenge" means he's all for Obama...
I've said it over and over again at the root of Sanders campaign is disdain for Obama
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Disdain for Obama has nothing to do with Bernie's politics.
He's fighting for single payer, social security, veteran's benefits and other programs that we need, he doesn't have time to worry about whose feelings get hurt in the process.
He doesn't pussyfoot around, that's one of the reasons why I support him.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)...
We need single payer does NOT mean keep medicare around
Obama care is a good republican program does NOT mean I support Obamacare
Obama needs a primary challenge does NOT mean he supports Obama
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)You guys have been attacking his proposal for months and you still don't know the details?
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... of the sort for months.
and the proposal is full of crap cause hows he going to get that past a historically gerrymandered GOP congress!?!?!
It's like people are whistling past the grave yard!!!
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Please elaborate in detail why you believe it's "crap".
druidity33
(6,446 posts)The ACA is nigh on identical to what we here in MA call "Romneycare", which is i believe where most of the proposals for the ACA came from. IOW, it was legislation signed into law by Romney. Keep in mind however that not ALL Republican legislation is bad (that's a more recent occurrence)... after all, what about the National Parks Service and the EPA?
cali
(114,904 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,335 posts)I suppose if it makes you feel better we can keep Medicaid and chip. But we won't need them if everyone is covered under Medicare.
Flood Medicare with healthy premium paying bodies. Take out the 30-40% of overhead and profit collected by dozens of individual insurance companies all duplicating efforts.
I've been paying, one way or another, in to private insurance but have never used it for much. As soon as I get old and start needing care I'll get pawned off to Medicare.
The current model is beyond ridiculous. I'd rather pay in to a system that I have a lifetime of support when I need it. Not, thanks for 40 years of premiums now go see Uncle Sam when you really get sick.
cali
(114,904 posts)Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)Show a bit of respect.
cali
(114,904 posts)Tommy2Tone
(1,307 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)kjones
(1,053 posts)Was in the middle of reading something when I first got it, took too long Wanted
to share my observations anyway because I'm going to begin voluntary full transparency
of all the Jury stuff I do. Something to do at least.
I believe the alerter said your post was "childish" and "playground" and below the standards
of DU.
What should have posted in whole...
========
"This alert seems unnecessary, as it is well under the threshold that has been the standard around here. Many of
Cali's own posts throughout this thread are on the same level as this post. I say that as evidence for the "if you can dish it, you can take it test." For example, the post(s) of Cali's that would seem to have brought this "cilly" about is when Cali (above this post) states:
"Fine, than hilly and her daughter should call him out as unrealistic,not blatantly lie" -Cali, post 75
Ellen's "cilly" (if used as the alerter implies) is a direct allusion to Cali's use of "hilly."
Further, if ellen's post is "childish" and "playground" (which would seem to already label it benign),
then so were Cali's earlier remarks. The post also isn't an obvious breach of the "disruptive,
hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate" standard by any REASONABLE
definition of those words. By both the standards of this thread, and of DU as a whole, this is the
type of thing that people regularly let pass. So, since it didn't come out of nowhere, it is not beyond
the tone of the rest of the comments (including Cali's own), and by the "dish it, take it" standard, I
vote to ignore it.
kjones"
=============
What a load.
I am glad you missed that jury, but now we understand.
kjones
(1,053 posts)But if you think I'm not fair, then I suppose you can always
blacklist me...
Really though, if "childish" is the primary descriptor of the
offense to which someone alerts, it's probably a hint that
alerting on it is childish too, or at very best, weak.
I could be like others I suppose, and just vote based on
whether or not someone is a Bernie/Hillary person...with
no explanation or analysis...since that seems to pass for
"fair" around here lately. Actually, I had kind of wanted to
change my avatar to Bernie, just to see what kind of
reaction I'd get. Instead of your reaction ("What a load"
...not exactly insightful analysis...maybe incite-ful though),
I'd probably get something along the lines of "traitor" or
something. Or hell, maybe people would just see
"Bernie" and knee-jerk accept what I said (like how
you probably saw "H>" and assumed an attitude).
This is what transparency is for though, now you'll be able
to see all the times I let Bernie folks go for the same kind of
things. Because, personally, all these "no comment" rulings
are getting pretty stupid, and I think the jury system
should be open and transparent.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... congress works or the ramifications of the 2010 midterms and the historically gerrymandered GOP congress.
Sanders isn't going to get the GOP to listen to them cause he got 2 trillion people to call their GOP congress person
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)In fact, they will do all they can to mire her in 24/7 hearings, did you not think this line of argument through?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)INdemo
(6,994 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)--national standards. Anyone who prefers paying a $800/month "premium" to a $200/month "tax" shouldn't be running around outside without adult supervision.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... single payer past the historically gerrymandered GOP congress who don't even have to listen to the people who voted FOR them!?!?!?
Does anyone understand the ramifications of 2010 midterms?!!?
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)It's 2016 and changes are moving faster than they ever have before. Who would have thought in 2008 that marriage equality would be legal in a relatively short period of time.
Change happens with taking the first step. All we can do is try.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... so no its not 2010 and the GOP knows they can burn down a pediatric oncology ward on prime time TV and still get voted into congress because the way the gerrymandering works.
They can literally invite Isis to negotiate taking over Sanders house in VT and still get into congress because the way it was gerrymandered.
Why people think Sanders is full of crap is cause he's been in congress too long not to know how this kind of gerrymandering works
Marty McGraw
(1,024 posts)We'll just sit on our hands once more and hope for a better Tomorrow then.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)IIRC even President Obama compared the ACA to Romneycare so people would get the vibe it wasn't some radical invention.
It was pretty much a talking point for Clinton as well, not to mention our party as a whole. Not being able to get much past that was a bone of contention at the time.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts).... challenge either.
Berniacs aren't going to convince anyone that either Sanders statements were of support...
They weren't
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)He implied it was good (it's the same), and "it was a Republican idea".
Rilgin
(787 posts)I really appreciate this last post because it is rare that you can totally wreck a talking point.
The person above was using an inauthentic talking point in attacking the statement of the ACA being a republican solution to our health care issues. He then based that argument on a statement that it was realy an attack by Bernie on Obama.
Here you have wrecked both legs of that argument at the same time by showing that Obama intentionally used a Republican solution.
So the only question is what will the person do when his argument runs into such an imposing brick wall. Usually I see they respond by having their argument morph into something else but I do not really see how he can get out of the box he painted. Waiting in total suspense on whether his argument morphs or whether we will only hear crickets as he moves to another thread and uses the same argument that he used in this thread.
The only guarantee is that the next thread that is on these issues, he will again deny that the ACA was based on the long term Republican solution to health care running all the way back to Nixon.
whathehell
(29,090 posts)He did say that "In the Eighties I would have been considered a moderate Republican". He's done some good things and I like him
personally, but he's not the best Democrat, especially on labor and economic issues.
Dretownblues
(253 posts)He called it a good Republican bill because it was based on Romney's bill in MA. He has said several times that he think obamacare is a good first step and would like to move to a single payer system, but never has he said he would repeal any of the programs mentioned. So please stop with the misinformation and also instead of supporting the lies coming out of the Clinton camp, you should stand up and condem them. Clinton supports love to talk about Sanders supports being hypocrites, yet when presented with a chance to lies coming from the Clinton camp, looks like they are just as hypocritical as the people they like to denounce.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Context IS important.
Dretownblues
(253 posts)Not for the Clinton's or their supporters I guess. Don't you love the double standard though, they say we will follow Bernie anywhere, but when the Clinton's pull something dirty like this, their supporters continue with the lie.
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)were both in Ankeny, Iowa last Sunday at Bernie's big rally. This was s pretty exciting rally with 900 very enthusiastic Bernie supporters. Lots of screaming, cheering. This is also the rally where people were mobbing Bernie and climbing over chairs to get to him.
H&H were both in the room when Bernie spoke to the precinct captains, as well.
Can't help but wonder if H&H are feeling the Bern? I'm sorry, but experiencing Bernie's crowds and enthusiasm is very impressive and contagious. It's been happening for a while now without the media.
Maybe Bernie will get fair coverage now. It really is an interesting story and so are Bernie's supporters. We climb over chairs, man!
Also--Heilemann and Halperin wrote, "Game Change" about the 2008 race and "Double Down" about the 2012 race. Maybe they're scoping out the landscape for a third book? Bernie's rise to the presidency would be an incredible story to tell!
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)it was designed to scare seniors.
stage left
(2,966 posts)because she knows it's not true.
Akamai
(1,779 posts)I will let you know if I can contribute.
Akamai
(1,779 posts)I sure am not wealthy but Bernie is critical to saving us, to saving the planet, etc.
Go Bernie!!!
GoneOffShore
(17,340 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Stump for your mother? No problem. Attack her opponent with distortions and untruths? Ugh.
Loudestlib
(980 posts)The GOP will use this even if it's not true.
Good Job!
INdemo
(6,994 posts)and she was all over the place. Clearly she was nervous. And Chelsea ..well she certainly wasn't prepared and she was saying a "Republican repeal of Obamacare with a Democrats help ?WTF was she talking about? Strip away insurance, bundle it up and turn it over to the States?
D E S P E R A T I O N No Doubt
Guess what though folks Bill 's next and we will probably here his Bull Shit tomorrow.
Thanks for this post
Great Work Cali
INdemo
(6,994 posts)I have a great idea, give Chelsea the reins and let her give the scream speech.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)I might have been amused by stuff like her interview with the GEICO chameleon, and other stuff, but this is the wrong fork in the road, IMHO.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)For example:
"I think Barack Obama believes that it is incredibly important that Hillary Clinton succeeds him," said a former close aide to Obama who is still connected with the White House. "The only way that we have an economy where people aren't losing their health care is if Hillary Clinton becomes president."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511000918
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)He doesn't have time to be giving anonymous quotes.
seafan
(9,387 posts)The attacks against Sanders are getting uglier by the minute, in the face of new polling over the past couple of days.
Hillary Clintons Lead Over Bernie Sanders Slipping in New Poll, January 12, 2016
Poll: Sanders cutting close to Clinton nationally, January 12, 2016
Bernie Sanders Takes Slim Lead Over Hillary Clinton in New Iowa Poll, January 12, 2016
Poll: Sanders leads Clinton by 14 in New Hampshire, January 12, 2016
Buckle up.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)She's a Clinton all right. She lies with ease.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)said that is untrue. From what I heard she was saying that she fears Sanders would assist republicans in repealing the Affordable Care Act. I'd appreciate a sincere response containing who what when why and how, without shorthand or sarcasm. Thanks in advance.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)Or you can say a better one was built on its structure, keeping its important features, and improving where it counted most.
So, no "Ack, the administrators are pulling the plug on DU, they've allied with the Republicans!".
Heeding Chelsea would make you think Sanders was scuttling the ACA. Obama himself said the ACA was a start.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)what you're saying.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)Sanders isn't going to help Republicans by doing away with affordable care. The analogy I made is that it's same as the administrators not doing away with our forums, they just made them much better.
I think Chelsea knows this, and going by early reactions from the media, it seems she drastically overplayed her hand. You aren't going to see the press agreeing that Sanders plans to do away with affordable insurance.
There's another way to characterize knowingly speaking a falsehood. But I'm keeping it polite.
It's very simple, but if the Clinton campaign, and their supporters, want to claim that Sanders will work with Republicans to do away with affordable insurance/healthcare, then please go right ahead. I'll kick any such threads here at DU as I think it's important for people to see such claims. Just like we want people to see Chelsea's video. Let the people judge if this is somehow complicated, or rather a matter of the Clinton campaign using Chelsea to inartfully dissemble.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Now I understand completely what you're saying.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)Up late and prone to neglecting to properly frame a post.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)winter is coming
(11,785 posts)like Medicare, CHIP, and the ACA. The GOP's mantra is "repeal and replace" and we all know they intend to "replace" ACA with nothing. Bernie wants to replace the ACA with something we commonly refer to as Medicare for All. Far from working with him, the GOP will fight him every step of the way.
When single payer comes--and it will, eventually, although perhaps not in my lifetime--the same bill that makes single paper possible should contain language about phasing out the old programs as the new one takes effect. They're not going to just toss out Medicare, CHIP, and the ACA and then start talking about what to do.
The ACA was supposed to be a first step toward single payer. Some people spoke against the ACA at the time because they were afraid it would compel people to buy minimally useful insurance and that the insurance companies would jack the premiums a few years after it took effect. Welp. So now we're at the point where it's been "proved" that the current system still ain't getting the job done, so we should take the next step.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I understand it now.
I'm for single payer too.
Rilgin
(787 posts)To do this you have to modify the existing laws and programs to expand the access for Women to health care. If I then claimed that Clinton wants to take away access to health care to women and base that statement on the fact that the current provisions that provide access would dissapear it would be a lie. I should be called on stating a lie because replacing a program with another is not the same as eliminating the program.
Bernies plan is to replace Medicaire and Medicaid with Medicaire for all. She can argue a lot of things that would not be outright lies such as feasability, cost, or even arguing that health care results would be worse. However, it would be a lie that he wants to repeal medicaire outright.
progree
(10,918 posts)Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Chelsea's performance certainly raises questions over how truthful her mother was when making ... any ... statement.
Bernblu
(441 posts)and it's pathetic to go after Sanders on these trumped up issues. If she had any respect for the voters and herself she would present a full throated defense of what she actually believes in, if she actually believes in anything at all.
Segami
(14,923 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)I almost,, ALMOST mind you, felt sorry her. She could barely remember her lines, looked and sounded like a robot, nervous, uncomfortable....
And she had the unmitigated gall to stand there in front of the entire world and lie!
I mean, not just little sneaky, half truths as so many politicians do but just out right tell lies.
Either she really supports her mother OR she ran back stage after her little act and yelled, "Mommy, mommy, why did you make me do that? "
cali
(114,904 posts)ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)of the slide.....................................................
CanonRay
(14,112 posts)I always like her. She should never have gotten involved and it smacks of desperation.
gordyfl
(598 posts)I watched the whole video. Good one.
I had previously read Chelsea's accusations. But, now that I have seen her on the video, I can honestly say she came across as very insincere. A lot more so than her mother does. She didn't read her lines very well. She acted like she was speaking out of compassion for the American people.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)I don't see her as having hardly any input as to what she delivered, and she came across as struggling to breathe while making the talking points attacking Sanders policies.
Arguably that's to her credit, not being able to convincingly deliver such an attack. Her body rebelled at performing the task.
gordyfl
(598 posts)Some people don't make good liars. Arguably, that's to her credit. That's where acting lessons would come in handy.
panader0
(25,816 posts)This thread has brought out all of those hard-of-hearing Hillarites who refuse to believe the words
entering their ears. Hillarious.
Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)ellie
(6,929 posts)I tell you! No one in politics except Hillary Clinton, or sorry Chelsea, lies. She is the only one. She is the only one whose husband cheated on her. The only one who voted for Bush's war. The only one who used a private email account. She singlehandedly killed those millions of people in Benghazi. Just her. She is simultaneously a weak woman and dictator-in-training.
cali
(114,904 posts)said anything about her being a dictator.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)But ya'll forgot about the Clintons' behavior in 2008 regarding their and their surrogates' racist attacks on Obama. Hopefully now you'll remember.
Response to cali (Original post)
Corruption Inc This message was self-deleted by its author.
Yupy
(154 posts)wolfie001
(2,264 posts)uberblonde
(1,215 posts)Color me surprised!
cali
(114,904 posts)CTyankee
(63,912 posts)to the antiwar movement and I had known him from that). His stuff is dead rehashed beltway garbage usually. Now reality intrudes on that careful world.
I like Heillman better. He's more real to me. I listen to him when he's on Morning Joe.
Utopian Leftist
(534 posts)She did not fall far from her famous father.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)the Wall Street brigade