maybe they are right but

at least bernie has the guts to identify the problems

that is always the first step

Go Bernie!

see over there in the bottom right ....
in front of that person in the red coat

Last edited Mon Feb 1, 2016, 04:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Bernie, is beyond me...
<snip>

that we have to wait until the time is right, or that "it won't work here in the U.S.". I realize that I live in a very politically diverse country however I often feel that the left is taken for granted, seen as loony or that what we want is completely unrealistic and will have to wait. Enough! I won't hear that anymore and I'm sick of waiting. Those who say and believe those things need to finally listen to us and take us seriously. Thankfully Bernie decided to run.

to want what the rest of the industrial world has got has always been beyond me.

a few advantages over us. For one thing, they don't have the crippling defense budgets that we have. They rely, in large part, on the American military for their collective defense. However, that is the one area where Bernie is the best hope to enact change by shifting our emphasis to education and health care and shifting more of the defense burden to where it belongs.

and an enthusiastic DURec for the OP and this entire thread.

BigBearJohn, you got skills!

I should have made it an excerpt. I just did.

I could never take credit for writing that great piece!

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

I love it; it deserves a link.

Now I see the big picture -- at last!

Sorry for not excerpting it sooner! I thought the "<snip>" was enough...

IT WASN'T.

It's a great piece, BBJ! Thanks for posting it!

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

Recommended.

economic considerations.

For that, neither he nor Hillary Clinton are my candidate.

And that's why he will lose.

He cannot win without the black vote.

And yes, he'll do well in Iowa and NH because there's few black voters there.

His campaign will be over in South Carolina!

I am NEITHER for Sanders, NOR am I for Hillary Clinton.

I was grammatically correct in my initial post and now.

White liberals can no longer try and control black voters. It ends in 2016!

have to choose between racial and economic justice ( I.e., it isn't either/or). Instead we should be clamoring for both (I.e., both/and).

He is suggesting that social justice can only be achieved through addressing economic justice. It's a kind of "trickle down" approach. Many people of color are arguing that achieving economic parity with whites does not eradicate racial injustice. We've been over this again and again. Black people with Ph.D.'s who own their own homes and have high salaries STILL face injustice. That is a reality that Bernie Sanders and his supporters seem to not get...or, they pretend not to get it.

It's a matter of priorities. Class and economics outweigh concerns about racial justice for Bernie Sanders and that is unfortunate.

The counter-argument has always been that achieving economic justice doesn't eradicate racial injustice.

We see this with our own two eyes when black men wearing suits are harassed and accosted.

We see this with our own two eyes when whites don't want to live in middle- or even upper-class neighborhoods if there are one or more blacks also living there. The evidence as presented by data on redlining and blockbusting also bear this out. Even today the most segregated neighborhoods are MIDDLE CLASS! So even if blacks achieve economic parity with whites, racial discrimination--SYSTEMATIC racism discrimination will still be pervasive.

This is why Bernie Sanders and his followers will lose this election as long as they refuse to accept the truth.

You need a substantial proportion of the black electorate to win. Many Hispanic/Latino voters are already with Hillary Clinton.

Sanders has not made many inroads with black voters, and I assume that at least some of that is due to his stance on race and class.

I would think white people would want to learn from non whites about how it is for you in America and how you see these candidates.

Guess not.

What legislation do you support that would end the racial injustice that you say is not related to economic justice?

What legislation do you want him to support?

Did you know that Vermont was the first state to abolish slavery?

The newly formed state, which broke away from New York, abolished slavery outright in its constitution, dated July 8, 1777.

The relevant section is Chapter I, subtitled "A DECLARATION OF THE RIGHTS OF THE INHABITANTS OF THE STATE OF VERMONT"

I. THAT all men are born equally free and independent, and have certain natural, inherent and unalienable rights, amongst which are the enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety. Therefore, no male person, born in this country, or brought from over sea, ought to be holden by law, to serve any person, as a servant, slave or apprentice, after he arrives to the age of twenty-one Years, nor female, in like manner, after she arrives to the age of eighteen years, unless they are bound by their own consent, after they arrive to such age, or bound by law, for the payment of debts, damages, fines, costs, or the like.

After declaring its independence, Vermont existed as a free republic known as the Commonwealth of Vermont. It was admitted to the union in 1791, with a state constitution that also contained the slavery ban. The 1777 constitution entitles Vermont to claim to be the first U.S. state to have abolished slavery.

Historian Joanne Pope Melish finds that "the language of the act was sufficiently vague that slaveholding may have persisted without sanction in a few cases for several years."[1] She cites the age limit in the clause banning involuntary servitude and points out the possibility of binding out black children of parents who had been slaves before 1777. But more likely, as Melish states, this was meant to continue the common New England policy of binding out indigent children, white or black, to prevent them being public charges.

. . . . (more)

http://slavenorth.com/vermont.htm

Because it's literally in everyone of his speeches. I can sit here at work and provide more examples if you missed the last 9 months

than racial/social justice. I call BULLSHIT!

Race is fundamental to understanding the ways in which this country works and has always worked!

Bernie Sanders will lose.

Truth, btw, unlike facts is highly subjective. In any case, your opinion is hardly some undying, universal truth. You know what they say about opinions and assholes.

Do you think the kids of black sports, entertainment and Wall St. stars are experiencing much/anything in the way of racial/social injustice when they attend private schools and can live in any high rent district and travel anywhere/everywhere their parents take them? I don't see it.

When I view such shows as "Real Housewives of Atlanta" and the upcoming "Real Housewives of the Potomac," I see no racial or social injustice experienced by any of these women and their families. I see rich African Americans living a much higher lifestyle than I ever have as an educated white teacher who has, BTW, worked many years in low income African American school districts that are segregated on the basis of the economics of that district, not race. Black rich kids have tutors, private schools, lavish birthday and graduation parties, and live in McMansions no matter their color, and their parents can buy all America has to offer.

Granted, these wealthy people do not represent the lifestyle of all African Americans by any means, in the same way that the Koch Bros. do not represent average white Americans' lifestyles. But I am making the point that if you have money/privilege/power, whatever your background/color/creed, you can buy anything including the best of everything. And when you're living in poverty, no matter your background/color/creed, you're then living at the whims of the power groups---corporate America and their henchmen in Congress.

Economic justice has EVERYTHING to do with racial and social justice these days.

The fastest way is by revamping the economic injustices.
Money is just a point system to control resources. That is all it ever has been since first introduced by the Mongols upon conquered peoples.
Redistribute the resources to help the least of us, right? Recognize the least of us deserves a share simply by being. Recognize the ones who control the most resources gobble up the shares of others.

I mean resources in the broadest sense; the resource of education, food, clean water, housing, healthcare, protection, opportunity and governmental representation.

harmony be achieved? Yes, he does. And that's why he'll lose the black vote.

Like I said, he may do very well among lily white electorates--Iowa and NH. But once he gets down the S.C., I don't see him doing well with people of color. That he refuses to acknowledge that race is more important than class will be his undoing.

Suggest it to Bernie. I bet he will go for it if it is at all reasonable and possible.

I live in California. We are an extremely diverse state. Soon, we whites will no longer be a majority.

I cannot say that we have racial equality. We don't. But we are on our way. It is mostly a matter of the numbers and intermarriage.

What laws do you support that you think Bernie does not support?

What laws do you think Hillary would support that would end or diminish racism that Bernie would not support?

Remember, Bernie campaigned for Jesse Jackson. That's hardly a racist thing to do.

now you are here regurgitating a very false lie. economic justice is racial justice.

back in the 70's during the eop push at universities and local government levels, monies for low income students and communities were fucked with - funds were dispensed to programs and different community racial groups unequally - no rhyme or reason. community leaders of color called it "throwing the dogs a bone" to further the infighting amongst the dogs at the bottom of the barrel. this is what you are playing into right now by continuing to post and perpetuate this shit here. stop.

how many social studies by people of color over the generations have pointed to economic disparity being the root cause for racial issues of bigotry and crime? these "studies" were required data to support the need for monies to support economic justice programs to government agencies, foundations, etc. everything from high birth mortality rates, to early childhood education, to more teachers, after school programs, lunch programs, trade schools, university education, health clinics, addiction services, mental health services, etc., etc. - these are economic Justice programs.

yes, you owe a debt to your people and mine who have fought for economic equality and justice for many generations. every time you post this lie undoes and dishonors their work. who the hell is perfect and does everything perfect. do you understand their bravery and commitment to making their communities safe and better? mlk, and all of the other social and economic justice warriors have fought a long fucking fight. and you know who was right there right along side them? bernie sanders.

who chose you to be the one who determines what is just and unjust for everyone else?

you know very well that the poor, ill, downtrodden, addicted, mentally challenged, and people of color are at the bottom of the barrel are discarded as not worthy for too many and for too damn long. we have been blamed for every ill. that is us, people of color in this country. blamed for every fricken' thing. why are you adding to it? why are you perpetuating the hate and bigotry? yes. you. are.

you are working and hating against yourself. btdt.

you missed the part where i said i am a person of color - and you call me racist? go ahead and say whatever you want to me. i've been treated like shit for 63 years by bigoted whites and light skinned people of color. your hate and disdain is no different

That fear is lessened when 'the other' looks more like us. When, for example, middle and upper class blacks and hispanics can afford to live in nice homes in nice neighborhoods, there seems to be greater acceptance.

I live in a very diverse town home community with Latin Americans, Indians, Asians, African Americans and middle-class whites. Everyone gets along very well. People help each other with carrying groceries, shoveling snow, keeping the grounds clean, etc. even the Board is diverse.

Without the economic power to enter the middle class, would there be this kind of good will in the community? I don't know, but it seems unlikely. No doubt the PoC are much more likely to be profiled and hassled by the police, but that's something that can be addressed by training and more inclusive police departments. But in large part, economic equality makes for a better community, because the fear of crime and assault dissipates.

For this reason, Bernie's message resonates with me. I can't speak for PoC, and we surely have a long ways to go before all people can live side by side in peace, but more equitable wealth is surely a major part of the equation. And it's something that we can actually address through policy. More and better education opportunities, affirmative action, an end to redlining and predatory banking can all be accomplished through the kind of policy change that Bernie is speaking to. Social justice will follow economic justice.

Just my $0.02.

I am saddened by your apparent rejection of political process, HOWEVER I want to applaud your courage in stating without reservation that there is not a major political figure in either party who has the slightest concept of the pernicious and ongoing effects of racism in this country.

Let me admit up front that I creeped your profile to try to figure out where you were coming from. Far too many DUers who support Hillary use race as a bludgeon against Sanders. In fact, it is one of the things which caused me to just stay out of the AA room. Seeing your post, reading your journal, and noticing that you posted a lot in AA actually makes me ashamed of that decision. Maybe I should reconsider.

I'm not going to tell you that you should vote for Bernie. A free person must vote their conscience and if it tells them that none deserve their vote, then none should get it.

It is my belief that among the popularly known figures of recent history Newton, Seale, Davis and Cleaver spoke more the truth of how racism must end. But I am an old man now. I have seen people fall by my side and be locked away for year upon year. I guess I am now just too sad and too tired to pick up a gun and fight. That may seem like a poor excuse to settle, but it is mine.

I go with Sanders, who at least will speak truth to power. It is what my conscience tells me.

I respect what yours say to you. I pray for you to stay strong.

Sadly, that's the way politics works, though you are right about racism. I think Bernie is very strong on race matters. I don't even think there's anyone better running.

Too bad. Not sure why they trust Hillary so much, but whatevs.

economics too. 'Course, he thought the problem was mostly black folks behavior, whereas you seem to think it is mostly white folks behavior.

Heck of a set of ideas to pick up, regardless. I will study it some more and see if perhaps there is a difference that is not readily apparent...



"Race is fundamental to understanding the ways in which this country works and has always worked! " < I think that is true, but it says nothing about what is more or less important, or what is necessary to the other.

...try something else maybe.

supporters' unwillingness to admit that race is central.

And again, that's why he's going to lose.

No Democrat can win without a substantial portion of the black electorate.

Sticking to the wall? That's a fact that has stuck.

Little black support? No Sanders candidacy.

try something else maybe

is exercising her self-respect and her choice not to support Bernie Sanders. And it is his supporters like you who will make things much worse for your candidate.

SLAVERY IS OVER!

You can no long tell black people what to think and who to vote for.

I am rooting for Sanders to lose because many of his supporters have been complete jerks and very racist.

There might be that one spot on the wall it will stick...look, see it? Try there!

another woman of color. she is not brave for standing up and spreading lies in the face of truth - not matter how often the truth is stated she will lie.

just a desire to hurt the feelings of the bad Bernie supporters. There are a number of them that do that. It's just hard to take them seriously.

Thanks for reaching out, hopemountain.

would you vote for?

stand Hillary.

So my (non)vote is inconsequential.

World System.

Capitalism itself is the basis for modern racism.

Please stop lying.

is to start addressing economic problems that exacerbate the racial divide.

If you would stop with the insults and attempt a reasoned discourse, you would get farther.

Everyone's version of the truth may be a little different than yours.

face racial discrimination despite the fact that they have achieved economic success.

This is what Sanders and his supporters are pretending not to grasp. It's a turnoff.

Black people and other POCs are still discriminated against no matter their economic standing because of basis of the capitalism is the exploitation of labor, specifically Black labor (slavery). This was only possible by creating a social system that fostered the 'inferiority' of one 'races' to each other.
It then expanded into the rest of the world via the imperial depredations of the Western European powers.
Economic success counts for nothing in a system based on white supremacy (in general terms).
Racial and social equality require radical changes to the systemic capitalist inequalities, or even better, moving to a new economic paradigm that values the labor of all people.

That is why changes have to come from all fronts, race, social, class, and the economy for all people to be free.

Where you guy learn this nonsense?

What government and economic systems are you speaking about?
What is the time frame that you are discussing?

out of HATE! It has nothing to do with the economic system

Blacks who live in England, France and other socialist systems will tell you that they face racism in their respective countries.

The shit you just spewed is absolutely ludicrous! Racism, racial discrimination exists in ALL forms and all over the globe.

I'm attempting to discuss the origin of modern racism with you.
If we are talking about white supremacy on a global scale, what are you attributing it to?
What does the hate stem from? What are it's origins?
Is hatred a human universal?
What forms of racial discrimination are there?

I'm just trying to understand the basis for your opinion.

Jesse Jackson's presidential campaigns.

whites from practicing racial discrimination against other groups! That's why race trumps class/economic considerations.

I'm not going to waiver on this point no matter how many examples of black prominent figures who support Bernie Sanders are thrown in my face.

Race trumps class and that's that.

I'm stuck with no candidate to vote for in the primary. I loathe Hillary Clinton and O'Malley has zero chance.

I'll vote for candidates on the down ticket, but I will skip casting a vote for a primary candidate for the presidential race.

there are candidates down ticket that put race first?

the local level where I live, not "fake liberal" like Sanders' supporters.

she puts race first?

"more blood money for the Pentagon and more flag waving..." beautiful

We went from the country that could save the world from a global fascist regime, to the country best representing a global fascist regime.
Our sovereignty was sold piece by piece.
We went from who can lead us forward, to who will (theoretically) fuck us the least.
We have become cold, unsupportive, and distant from each other; unable to really band together to accomplish
things.

I am the 99%. I do not like what we have become. I will work for the greatest possible change in the shortest time possible.
I have been increasingly burdened over the last 40 years. I am used to work and hardships. Now, I will turn my experience in deprivation and labor to my advantage. I will redirect our country.

It starts today.

day after day, and I'm told over and over that they won't caucus. What am I to believe?? I KNOW the "Democratic Party Machine" has a POWER that "we the people" are expected to believe in, BUT I DON'T!

How will they use it against someone like Bernie? Are they going to pull out all the stops to keep our voices from being heard? I now have a healthy FEAR of them, which is something I thought I would NEVER say. But, I feel they've abandoned me in so many ways.

LET OUR VOICES and show of support turn into REAL votes! PLEASE let this be the time... FOR THE REVOLUTION!

Go Bernie! Go us!

You have summed it up very well. Thank you BigBearJohn.

Last edited Mon Feb 1, 2016, 04:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Only instead of typing "kick", I typed "lick".

Why do the "K" and "L" keys have to so durn close to each other?

Hopefully this is the long awaited sea change and humanity makes a comeback.

something that I believe we thought we were getting when we backed President Obama is I believe now there for those of us who wanted then and still want now. A President such as I believe Bernie Sanders will be. We wanted hope and change, were promised hope and change, and we got some change electing President Obama, I'm grateful for the good things he has done. I believe Bernie Sanders will take this to the level we thought we were going to get when we elected President Obama. I believe he will build on the good things President Obama has done, work hard to implement the things we hoped for that President Obama has not been able to accomplish.

There aren't many politicians in the House or Senate that has as consistent a record as Bernie Sanders does. There aren't many that have worked diligently for the middle class and the poor, there aren't many who have consistently come down on the right side of issues as often as Bernie Sanders has. I personally can't see anyone running this year for the office of President that even holds a candle to the honesty and integrity of Bernie Sanders.

I truly hope Bernie will win the primary and go on to win the general election. Thank you for this inspirational post, the picture of the audience at that rally says an awful lot. GO BERNIE! And oh yes BigBearJohn

The spirit of equality won't die even against the most powerful odds .

nt

for another nationwide ride."

Wow!

Great diary! Bernie supporters at Kos have been on fire lately!

K&R

This is a huge issue facing us all as Americans, whether or not we'll decide once and for all to tell the truth about who we are as a nation. I knew a American man that lived most of his life in SE Asia and was an expert on the VietNam war (because he was there) and he used to say, "We will never know the truth about what happened here." I want to know the truth about our wars and our history. It's time.

It's payday, time to donate to Senator Sanders' campaign!

and vote overwhelmingly for Bernie!

Thanks for the thread, BigBearJohn.

I lived there for a few years and took part in the 1980 caucus. It was a great experience. Every place should caucus.