If Democratic voters didn't come out to vote in 2010 and 2014, and Congress went republican, how can we say they will come out for a revolution?

In 2010 and 2014, we ran very, very, very centrist campaigns. Heck, our candidates distanced themselves from Obama because he was "too radical".

And a number of voters who turned out for "Hope and Change" in 2008 stayed home. Couldn't even get a good chunk of them back in 2012 - Obama's margin in 2012 was half his margin in 2008, despite being an incumbent.

If they came out for "Hope and Change" in 2008 why would they stay home for "More Hope, More Change"?
And more importantly, why would giving them a repeat of our 2010 and 2014 strategy work better?

...why nothing was getting done in a very clear way for people. He doesn't really have a problem letting people know exactly how he feels. This would then be used a motivator to bring about real change.

Last edited Sat Feb 6, 2016, 10:21 PM - Edit history (1)

government didn't have the same Agenda .

She helped line up the votes for TPA first. Voted against it herself since her district would really not like a "yes" vote, but helped make sure it would pass.

Then she opposed the TPP. TPA guarantees it will pass - they only need Republican votes to pass it now.

to vote for?

run...they tend to lose...

What the establishment seem to forget is to keep their voters mollified and at least try to keep their promises and push for democrats who don't sound like republicans.

Give the democratic base someone reliable to vote for in mid-terms, and victories will come.

What I do not understand is how Hillary can take many Bernie Sanders voters for granted after having been demonized by both Hillary supporters and ignored by a corrupt establishment.

What Bernie has done is bring millions of more voters into the party. The establishment seek to estrange them at during the campaign, and I can only imagine how disappointed they will become when their Hillary loses to a republican after getting selected as the candidate by media and the establishment.

I predict that many will go for Jill Stein or some other independent if a liable person should decide to run.

That will not happen with Bernie Sanders as the democratic candidate.

I for one served in a war during the Clinton years, and feel the CS gas in my mouth when thinking of another Clinton in Office. Bernie has impressed me throughout the entire campaign. Hillary has not. I am sorry. But I can not endorse a candidate whose one major supporters (Albright) said "it was worth it" about the Iraq embargo, and the "we came, we saw, he died" attitude of Hillary while shrugging off the consequences of those actions.

Bush&Cheney had their Afghanistan and and Iraq. Obama and Hillary have Libya and Syria. The consequences are boat refugees crossing the Mediteranean.

http://asian-defence-news.blogspot.no/2015/06/hillarys-donors-got-165-billion-in-arms.html

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/new-report-clinton-foundation-donors-got-weapons-hillarys-state-department

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/hillary_clintons_state_department_approved_165_billion_in_arms_sales_to_fou

As a veteran, one cannot pay me to trust someone whose major contributors is the arms industry who's profits increase every time a president and his Congress drumb up for war.
I cannot give my voice of endorsement to someone who would still criminalize me and hundreds of thousands of veterans who have found relief in Cannabis as opposed to the pharma drugs that also funds candidates on both sides of the isle.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/16/politics/hillary-clinton-marijuana/index.html

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/10/hillarys-hypocrisy-on-marijuana-legalization.html

I cannot give any reason why she should be supported when she has the same donor as some of her republican opponents.

I wonder. Why should you?

…..enough difference between Republicans and Democrats.

As some famous Democratic politician once said —(Carter? Truman? Even Bill Clinton?) —if people have to choose between a wishy washy Democrat trying to be a Republican and a strong Republican, they'll vote for the Republican.

May she have a nice retirement.

Obama stopped us from going over the cliff but we are still stuck on the edge. Bernie is the driver of the tow truck who can bring us back. Hillary is saying NO to that.

It's nonsense and I haven't seen a Sanders supporter irl or online who doesn't know it.

remembers that. Now for the Bosnia airport story, pla-leeeze!

Enough people are fed up on the money in politics issue! If Bernie wins the White House even Tea Party Republicans would support getting the money out of politics. They agree with Bernie on that issue.

I would like to know Hillary's answers to a couple of questions:
1. Does Hillary believe that their is a problem with money in politics? She says she does;
2. How will she solve it?;
3. How will she get significant PROGRESSIVE policies through Congress? My guess is by cutting SS, Medicare/Medicaid and other social welfare programs.

I prefer Bernie's Unicorns and Rainbows!

...given what she's been saying about herself and how none of her votes have been influenced by her campaign donations. Or maybe it's just her that's above it? What was that about "Liberty for me, but not for thee"? Maybe it's "Corporate cash for me, but not for thee."

this is not over in November

It's amazing to me how facile the conversation amongst the media elites has become. Bernie says over and over and over again that it isn't about him but us and they think we're all naive suckers seeing him as some sort of godlike figure capable of bringing down the rapture all by himself.

I am not so naive. I am ready to fight for democratic socialism and prosecutions of the "malefactors of great wealth." These people have committed crimes with great impunity.

Before Greenwald become super famous, I attended a talk he gave in Berkeley after the release of his book With Liberty and Justice for Some...

This isn't a sustainable system of government. If we don't get the change from the left we are very much in danger of getting it from the right.

They have to argue that Sanders and his supporters are seeking unicorns.

Otherwise, they'd have to argue on issues. They'd have to talk about what Clinton actually did when she was getting her experience, instead of treating experience like a check-box.

They'd have to argue ludicrous positions like "the Congress that just tried to repeal the ACA again will help Clinton improve it".

They'd have to actually explain why Clinton is the only nominee who doesn't have a social justice plan that BLM thinks is sufficient, but she's the only candidate that can address BLM's concerns.

And many, many, many other problems.

So they're going to keep shouting about unicorns to keep the discussion from becoming substantive.

that it could succeed. For example, some democratic socialists having won major elections outside of a few blue states. The fact that there are none throws serious doubt into the plausibility of any of this.

The argument seems to be that Bernie is an unprecedented and unstoppable political force, and none of the rules apply anymore. The reality is, there are only 4 years of new voters since 2012. And only 2 years since 2014. I don't see the case for it.

...a revolution would have to have succeeded first before you'd make an effort? That's awfully convenient...

The only reason it wouldn't succeed, is the attitude you're espousing. Hillary isn't addressing the main problem our government has, corruption, and has in fact denied it! She doesn't think money influences politics, or at least, not hers.

Tell me this, then: How would Hillary fare with the same congress that won't work with Sanders?

The big problem is that there's a tradeoff involved in nominating Bernie, and going for the revolution, because if it fails then we get a GOP president. There's a cost-benefit analysis.

It's not that the revolution will have to have succeeded, it's that it has to have a chance to succeed. A very good chance. Because the downside is huge. I don't think that the GOP would work with either Clinton or Sanders -- either way it's going to be a fight, and progress will be incremental. This is exactly why what matters to me is keeping the White House.

As far as your claim that Hillary doesn't thing money influences politics, this is absurd. She has the same view on Citizens United as Bernie: it needs to be overturned. The only way it gets overturned is if we elect another Dem. Either one will do. A Republican won't.

It's a question of belief. It's a question about what we want this country to become.
Clinton truly IS telling her supporters: "No we cant."
Pretty sad.

Calling me "sad" or whatever else you want to say doesn't change that.

Where I live there often isn't a Democratic candidate opposing the republican. I keep reading, although it is anectdotal, of republicans crossing over to support Bernie. There is certainly evidence of support among younger Americans. I believe that many people are desperate for our nation to work again and don't believe the establishment candidates can deliver. I believe there is a growing understanding that we are going to have to break the current two-party lock on the system and try something different. To use a sports analogy, we need to play to win - not to keep from losing. I believe it is time for a bold strike in a different direction. I believe Sen. Sanders can take us there and I doubt that Sec. Clinton can. I know that you probably disagree with me and I respect that. Just let me leave you with two quotes from Alexander the Great:

"I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion."

"There is nothing impossible to him who will try."

Now is the time for us to be bold.

Bernie Sanders proposed and what he helped get passed. He has a really good record.

Oh no, didn't realize it was you again. Never mind.

but answering the question would be much better.

his agenda. That's quite different than someone playing us, telling us what we want to hear, then working deals to get their Wall Street buddies what they wanted all along. We've had enough of that.

Like a 70 Senator majority and the majority in the House. Not gonna happen.


Oh well.

...that happens to be Bernie. I've been politically active since 2006 and fully comprehend the difficulty of the congress. Would it help you if I said I don't expect much policy to get done during his first term? That's how cognizant I am of the problem. Fortunately, he has a solution.

I do the same. A whole candidate.

I guess I'm just a center left liberal not a far left socialist.

I believe in capitalism, with strict laws, and some social programs.

I believe in someone who has a lot of experience in a lot of areas.

I believe in someone with experience in fight the GOP lie machine. I lived through Carter and Mondale. I know what's coming. Sanders would be destroyed.

Oh well.

The things he says and has been saying for years used to be the dead-center of the Democratic Party. He reminds this Minnesotan of two great Senators from my state - Hubert Humphrey and Paul Wellstone. Who represented the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.

at all, but we should insist on restarting the
fairness doctrine as a serious issue.

As long as the media are not carefully regulated
we will have a terrible problem getting truth to
the people.

Yes, it takes more than belief, it takes a time
consuming effort to "invade" the powerful old
guards in the local parties, and I think I see
a little of that happening in my own district.

Whatever will happen the push for the WH for
Bernie will grow and last until after the election.

Whether people will keep pushing afterwards
remains to be seen.

By any politician, anywhere.

My mind had often wondered back to Obama's initial inauguration day, it was there I saw an army, not a bunch of gawkers, an army, one that was ready, willing and able to be called upon to do battle, not with guns, but with support, organization and a relentless fervor in front of a reluctant congress traitors offices, sending an avalanche of unending letters, or doing other things needed as needed - in short unwavering pressure on the establishment to complete the mandate that they had assembled and voted for!

Sadly, that army was not called upon, it was not asked to serve and so it sullenly, if reluctantly disbanded and left the battle field. It is my firm belief that an army rivaling that, nay, surpassing that can be called forth once again; not this time just for the purpose of winning an election, but for the continuing purposes of fulfilling the mandate the polls tell us all that the bulk of our country wants, I speak not of the polls regarding individuals, but of policies and hopes the American people have for themselves, their elderly, and their children.

I will tell you this, the bulk of what we the American people want is not Oligarchy, perpetual war, the handy laundry list of trade agreements that serve our jobs to remote countries, but rather the bulk of what was laid forth in FDR's economic bill of rights which is largely mirrored in the stated goals of Bernie Sanders. He is not only the one to lead us.

HE IS THE ONE THAT FINALLY WILL. I suspect he will call upon us often and effectively and will be just as harsh on us if we do not stand for ourselves, stand on our own with him, as he is when addressing a wayward Greenspan or bank executive.

I will not expect such criticism often, but rather I expect it will be unnecessary!

(well you did ask)

Sadly, bingo.

The struggle for the formation of a political movement that can force the demands of the working class, and other people before profit demands, will take much more than voting. Agitation, organization, and resistance against the whims of private capital over the working class will be needed in all things. Organization outside of the electoral system on all levels will also be needed. I don't say this sarcastically and I don't say it knock you, but if you think electoral politics alone can solve what the working class faces against these ruling class parasites you are indeed in the land of unicorns, rainbows, and fantasy.


"Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth."

--Lucy Parsons

I took the voting for better representation part as a given and should have mentioned it as well, but put our posts together and you will see it can and will be done.

If it is indeed the will of the people to achieve what they will to achieve.

up to this point I see no evidence whatsoever that the currently constructed Democratic Party has any interest whatsoever in implementing even the smallest of demands of the working class and the struggling. Sanders seems to have some interest in implementing at least some of them and understands it is not about him. It's up to us to be in a position to command and demand. Clinton like Obama and all neoliberals will crush rather than listen to any movement to that end. If the movement and energy for Sanders is consumed back into business as usual... if he should lose... then nothing will have been gained.

even as he provides the things to vote for and endorses those that step forward to provide the new politicians.

Already DWS will be facing such a primary challenger and it hasn't even started yet. When Sanders is elected, such instances will be duplicated.

The people have to keep going after the election as I said however. Not dismissed as they were when Obama could have called upon them to mobilize and apply pressure outside of the Congressional offices rather than trying to play bi-partisan man.

but I think we need leaders among ourselves to lead the way also. I think Sanders gets that him having read Debs. I realize Sanders is not as left as Debs but still.

"Too long have the workers of the world waited for some Moses to
lead them out of bondage. I would not lead you out if I could; for if
you could be led out, you could be led back again. I would have you make
up your minds there is nothing that you cannot do for yourselves."

--Eugene V. Debs

When I said the movement would supply the needed politicians, I should have clarified it would provide leaders in all the different areas of necessity as well. I love Debs, and wish Bernie was more like him in some ways, But to listen to the pundits talk he is a raging leftist when in reality he is a center left Capitalist much like FDR was at best. People in this day and age don't even appear to realize that FDR was really all about saving Capitalism by compromising with the true left.

I do think that Bernie is willing and of a heart to try to take us at least to the center left extreme of Capitalism as expressed in the Second bill of rights that FDR did not live long enough to accomplish.

As far as any real left, or left fringe in this country, I fear that was so thoroughly squashed by McCarthy that it will be a century before that point of view will even have the smallest seat at the table to offer ideas in negotiations.

Unfortunately, there was no equal push to squash the Fascists in this country, and we have a John Birch society party in the Republicans ready to go full on Fascist at the drop of a hat given the chance. I myself am not a Communist or true Socialist, but feel they were a necessary counter balance to the fascists during the 30's and 40's. I fear center left may not be enough of a counter balance at present and it is all we have, but we must use what we have and hope for the best.

we're on the same page. The purge of leftists out of many movements was a stake through the heart of the working class and the unions. Without that pressure from the leftist movements everything swung to the right as you say. Never discount a little rising from the dead of that movement that can apply some pressure though. Really good post Dragonfli. Thanks for that.

Almost first thing President Obama did was dismantle/ignore the grassroots organization that got him elected. I will not forget that.

It's a huge undertaking.

clarity of vision and demands are needed but we have to start somewhere no matter how small the spark may be. Lets hope Sanders can provide a small spark in that direction.

I say you're wrong. One thing to say:

19th Amendment




The struggle continues. Get on board or get out of the way.

for us the struggle against capitalist social relations is just beginning anew. Our platform does not ignore the struggles of various movements regardless of the class consciousness of those movements at any given time. We have always been on board with anything that advances the causes of working people across all genders and divides. That said...there is no possibility of social justice without economic justice and that means addressing capitalist social relations and class analysis in all things and all movements.

Something you might need to remember if you are talking about getting on board with voting alone as a solution.

"Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth."

--Lucy Parsons

He cannot do it by himself, even in 2 terms he still needs the people to back him up and elect like minded dems to congress, if congress stays as is there will be no differences in the next 8 years than the last 8 years.. standstill and idiocy. We need to get the vote out for congressional elections also, off year is important too... get control of both houses and get the program going.. Lot of hard work and not sure it can be done but nothing will happen if we all sit around on our pity pots wringing our hands and crying into our hankies..It takes work and lots of it...GOTV

GO Bernie, GO.

When I grew up, it was obvious the party attuned to the average person was the Democratic Party. So we always had politicians in our corner for advancement. That changed in the 80's when some Democratic Senators wanted their version of Reagan. They had to hide their intent through their own version. But those of us that wanted none of that didn't go along. But they grabbed tha party apparatus anyway. Now we are here. Where do we go? Some people refuse to follow. The answer lies with you.

Just how difficult it would be for Hillary to get the things done that they think she would try to get done.

Republicans have not changed, and they've been hating her a lot longer than they've been hating Obama. You think they obstructed his agenda? They were just getting started!

In light of that fact, Bernie is not much of a risk at all.

...as she doesn't address it. She just says Bernie can't do anything. Kind of makes me nervous for what she thinks she can get done.

eom

she will likely pay some favors to Wall Street, Pharma, MIC, and prisons to lure some Republican compliance. She is a progressive who likes to get things done after all. And that money she takes from them wont influence her, she's already on board

Virtually everywhere actual progressives ran in 2014, they won.

Thanks for the thread, TCJ70.

starts with one step - if you don't take that step you won't go anywhere. It might take years, but it needs to be done.

As clear as a church bell on a beautiful sunday morning. The man is unflappable in his desire to change the way things are done in this country and for that I will work my ass off to help him. I trust him like I've not trusted anyone in politics since President Jimmy Carter. He, Bernie, is honest with us, plain spoken and speaks the truth no matter what the subject is.
I'd love to see a woman President but I'll be damned if I vote for someone based on that alone. Give me an Elizabeth Warren and I'm be all over her like I am all over the old man this time around.
I'll vote for Hillary in the general if she is our nominee as I'm a down and dirty cut to the bone Democratic Party animal. I trust my party to at least try to do what is right by me more times than not. I can't say that by any stretch for the republiCON party.

We've had a couple political revolution prior to this one coming up so its not like its plowing new ground nor is it to be scoffed at as if it can't be done. It can be done and we're going to do it, this time, not next time but this time. Bernie is going to be leading us the whole way too.

Hillary is like a chameleon, she takes on the colors of her surroundings. If anyone who was watching the last debate and didn't notice that Hillary was saying exactly what many here have been saying all along that she will use the ideas and words coming out of Bernie's mouth as if they're hers and sure enough if you would have closed your eyes and if her voice was disguised you'd not be able to tell that it wasn't Bernie Sanders talking most of the time she opened her mouth. When she wasn't whining that is. Bernie is not much of a whiner

We must not forget that Hillary has had her eyes on the oval office ever since Bill won in '92 and everything she's done has been done with that goal in mind.

Like I've said many times I'll vote for her if I have to but it will be a have to case. In the mean time I'll soldier on for Bernie Sanders. In my view, he is our only chance in turning this thing around. We can't continue much longer as we as a country are going today and the way we've been heading pretty much since the new deal, at least since the assassination of JFK.

And thanks for the kick!

Viva la revolucion!

the revolution must succeed for Americans to get their lives back...Nominate Bernie or forget the changes that can save the people from the Oligarchy...

...which does not meet the climate of this election cycle. That and Bernie is just right on most everything.

about Bernie Sanders.

The hard work of getting Sanders into the White House is going to be followed by the hard work of understanding his shortcomings once he's there.

long. Our DEMOCRATIC Party got hijacked and tuned into something that neither looks nor acts like the REAL DEMOCRATIC Party I joined so many years ago. I've made this statement over and over and over again right here at DU. For years so many of us have put our lives into hands of who we THOUGHT would help us, but each year it's gotten WORSE!

I get it that many here don't know what that DEMOCRATIC Party was like, never saw anything but what we see now so that's a factor. But even IF you didn't know, what is it about the STATUS QUO that keeps your feet stuck in the muck of what we have now?

Almost to a person in Congress, those wonderful lawmakers who were going to go to bat for us are now UNWILLING to move forward and fight for what they told us they wanted to do for "we the people" who elected them. For far too many years we were told to write, call, contact, work for, campaign for, give money to, help pass bills and so much more, but when the rubber met the road, the ONES we thought were going to fight for us... well they just MADE DEALS! Yes, The Boxer's & Pelosi's, the Schumer's and Barney Frank's... they MADE DEALS.

And NOW they are trying to do everything possible to keep "we the people" from choosing a person who KEPT HIS WORD from the beginning from becoming POTUS! THEY'RE FIGHTING US!! Sure, many people are still believing that with Hillary THEY WILL CHANGE, but I don't believe it.

I no longer think THEY want change, at least a huge portion of them. As long as they can keep getting elected by KEEPING others from challenging them, it's just fine.

ONCE, there was a time when a person thought they could run for office and have a chance to win, but they perfected the art of making them invisible. So people just stopped trying and they stopped voting. Our Party sat on their ASSES while the other side took over and has done everything they can to SUPPRESS people from voting! What have THEY done to fight against it??

There's so much more, but I'll stop for now. Our Democratic Party Armada is the Goliath against Bernie Sanders. I know he can bring in new blood and down ticket people because they will start believing they can FIGHT THE MACHINE! Ask DWS who has NEVER had a Primary person to run against. She DOES NOW! Tim Canova! His name is being heard and people are listening, they are liking what he's saying too.

Just one more thing. Even IF Bernie doesn't win, he's awakened a SLEEPING America that is being shown that YOU CAN FIGHT, and people are now listening WITH THEIR HEARTS AND THEIR MINDS! They are ready to challenge the STATUS QUO!

Without Bernie, it would never have started!!!

...agree completely!

Donate, etc, because we would need all hands on deck to have any prayer of keeping the white house.

is a very attractive quality. Bernie has it, that's the thing about him I love the most.

we are ready to do that.

it requires hard work and it will not make you popular at your country club. It is easier to just go with the flow, and I'll admit that even for myself IRL it was much easier to simply join the corporate world when I was young etc. At some point though, your conscience may catch up with you and require you to step outside that box a little. I think Hillary has a lot of spunk, and I wish she would let go of her preconceptions and fight for all lower income Americans the way I have seen her address the needs of women/children. I don't think she is a bad person, just one who has played the game so long that she can't imagine stepping off that path.

I am supporting Bernie because while he has played the game enough to get himself elected, he has stayed true to supporting the most needy. That takes a lot of courage.

#FeelTheBern