... our day is coming very soon. It will be here sooner than many on the other side are expecting. They don't believe it, but it's true. When it comes, there will be some very shocked people who weren't prepared for the reality of what's about to happen.

Go, Hillary! We love you!

Being a straight person, it's obvious that you know very little history of LGBT politics. Our roots are in the streets and against the Machine politicians, Harvey Milk ran against the Democratic Machine and he named it that on his posters. The establishment A-List SF gays did not support Harvey, the people did.

The very first action by ACT UP NY was March 24, 1987 on Wall St. To protest profiteering pharmaceutical companies. The theme: 'No More Business As Usual'.
This became a regular site of demonstration, here is a link about the 1997 action at which 73 were arrested. 'Crash the Market' was the theme. Got to have a theme:
NEW YORK, March 24, 1997 - Hundreds of AIDS activists from ACT_UP_(AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power) converged on Wall Street this morning, stopping traffic and paralyzing Lower Manhattan for more than three hours. The group gathered to protest price-gouging by pharmaceutical companies and cutbacks in Medicaid funding, and demanded Congressional hearings on AIDS drug pricing. Seventy-three people, two thirds of them women, were arrested for acts of civil disobedience near the New York Stock Exchange. The demonstration was called "Crash the Market."
http://www.actupny.org/%2010thanniversary/10th%20repor.html

Bill Clinton meets ACT UP 1992

But you are full of shit on LGBT issues, being a straight person and a member of the oppressing class. Got it? You are trying to silence me by co-opting issues that do not belong to you. It is obvious that this is your objective because you did not respond to a single piece of information I posted, all you did was assert your own authority to preach about LGBT history in spite of not knowing any of it, in spite of not having taken part in any of it.

So steamroll LGBT voices with loud straight voices. Good luck with that.

You don't know me personally. You have no idea who I am. How dare you try to silence me with this crap. You have no idea my life experiences and it might suit you well to not try and bully me into silence.

I don't owe you not ONE defense of myself. Got it.

unrelated political causes, in fact to advance a candidate who opposed marriage equality until just after the cows came home.

Do you like it when men preach at women about women's history and issues? Do you think white people should be pontificating about African American politics or history and refusing to give ear to African Americans who do not agree with them?

Why is this different?

Can you respond to the things I wrote to you, which contradict your OP's assertions about a community you are not part of? Or is this only about you and Hillary with LGBT as a device, exploited as a device?

That should be plain for anyone to see.

want to ignore them, you want to silence the voice of a member of a community you yourself tried to speak for, you refuse to even acknowledge what I wrote and you accuse me of insults I did not make.

By not engaging with the facts I have presented, you demonstrate the exploitative 'I will tell you people' nature of your OP.

Especially after such hostility without knowing not one damned thing about me personally.

Learn this. I will engage when I want. You can't order me around. My not answering doesn't mean what you would like it to.

Pulling this 'you are angry' crap is Straight Bully Talk 101. Your OP is exploitative and hostile, an effort to define minority groups to which you do not belong. So check yourself. It is you who is in the wrong, it is me who is offering information to educate you in the areas you are lacking in information.

When you say Wall St has nothing to do with LGBT politics you deny our history.

respect. You either ignore them or rip into them to tell them how to be. I offered up facts that are not in agreement with your OP and you have not even discussed those elements of LGBT history.

If you don't want to silence voices, what you have to do is listen.


That's it. Listen.

When you really want to have a conversation about something I actually wrote in an OP, without hurling insults and demands around, let me know. I will be happy to.

Just so you know. It's not nothing you are being offered here. What you are sliding on by is not nothing, although you dismiss it and deny it.

Your candidate opposed my rights for 20 fully voiced years.

to read or watch anything further.

is insulting. You have not responded to anything said to you by me or other LGBT posters who do not agree with your straight point of view. You are dismissing the very persons you make use of in your rhetorical defense of yourself.

You just keep talking down to people, and using that which you have no standing to use. So far Hillary telling other people how to be has worked out well for Bernie.

She opposed my right to marry.

I don't happen to have such grandiose thoughts about myself, though.

I said nothing about the movement nor did I indicate that your attempt to speak for us has worked out well for you.

This comment of yours is yet another rude dismissive evasion of the facts being stated to you. You should ether fish or cut bait.

What you are doing is called Straight 'Splaining.

This, you can't say anything cause I disagree with you and if you do you are trying to co-opt.

Funny thing is, you and I don't disagree on the issues, I know that from our past exchanges. What I disagree with are your attempts to try and silence me in this manner.

And as you know the LGBT is not a monolith, so why don't you take your advice and realize you do not speak for the entire community. There are many LGBT Clinton supporters. And I don't think they are trying to co-opt a community they belong to. And many who would also agree, with the central point I have made here in this thread, which BTW you haven't a thing to say about...

from past exchanges but you just snapped this at me upthread: "you don't know me personally. You have no idea who I am" yet you proceed to freely characterize and lecture me while saying that you do know me. You know me, but I don't know you at all. You can tell me, but I am not allowed to respond.

You have not spoken to any fact I posted. Still. You have accused me of insulting you, of being hostile and of speaking for my own community when that's your job, apparently. But you have not talked about the ACT UP history or any of the other things I wrote about.

tell me I don't have the right to speak about any of this. Stating I am co-opting a community, co-opting a community that agrees with only you on everything?

Trying to force me into silence. Well, know this. I won't be silenced in this manner. I will speak my opinion. There are many members of the community you say I am attempting to co-opt who support Clinton and have no disagreement with the central point of the OP.

Which again, BTW you have nothing to say about.

many, many dead friends, mentors, employers, collaborators and allies. I never said not implied that the entire community agrees with me and I never would. Your OP does in fact imply that LGBT are all for Hillary. We are not.

I brought facts to the thread which challenge some of your assertions based on historical facts. You reacted by yelling at me that you will say whatever you want. You had no mind for what I wrote, just for argument.

You said claimed LGBT are not interested in Wall St reforms but that has been a leading and defining issue of our politics. To deny that is simply wrong.

It's very wrong.

Ok, that is one POV.

A rather limited one. But whatever.

wrote and your attempt to evade what I wrote by offering up nonsense. I have brought you valid criticisms of your OP. You have not even acknowledged any of it. Here you yet again claim to speak for me by presenting as my own words I did not say and ideas I did not convey.

A community, which you finally recognize is not monolithic, but still attempt to paint the support of that community and widely held POV as somehow unworthy.

Do you hear yourself telling me that I 'finally realize' the LGBT community is as it is? My own community? Do you hear yourself? Why would you think a activist out gay man would not know the nature of his own community, bean?

Do you think members of other minority groups need those from outside their group to teach them how to be a proper member of their own minority? Or is it just gay men? All LGBT? How does it work?

and you read that one just right. How's your head after banging it against that wall?

Good luck ever getting a straight or honest answer.

as rhetorical devices even as her supporters demand that other minorities speak only for themselves'.

I was at ACT UP events in the 90's and I did not meet Hillary Clinton, I did not meet Boston Bean. I did meet Larry Kramer.

There is a certain sense of entitlement from Hilary's side.

LGBTer here who cannot (((STAND))) either Clinton.

I can't stand them, actually.

U do not know WHAT SHE IS

Many ignore the b in lgbt so i get left our too and harangued because i am not important because i am just a b

she's never said she was LGB or T. She is of course free to do so, but I do not assume people are LGBT if I've been around them for years and they don't identify. People who are in the closet are in the closet and it is not my job to assume or to out them. It is there job to do that.
I have plenty of bisexual friends including my very own life partner. Yes. My oldest friend in the world is a trans woman. So your attempt to smear is very far off based because of course you don't know me at all.



She claimed LGBT don't care about Wall St reform and that's just historically ignorant. I presented the facts she did not know and she did not react well. You claim I said shit I neither said nor implied. Whatever.
Others can read the words and see what was said by whom. And they will.

style of communications is not of the sweetness and light variety so you telling me I'm rude is hilarious. Who gets the time outs and hides? Not so much me, as you. This is because many of your posts are like this one, personal smears lacking in citation or basis, lacking in response and devoid of political content, it's just a nasty remark about me.
I've been insulted by people who know how to write a good insult. So another approach might work better for you.

I also like the truth of the history of my community to be known and not eradicated by persons seeking to pave a path to the WH for a person who opposed my rights for many long years.

Rather than gish galloped with HE's THE BEST FOR BLACK PEOPLE ops.

You lose it when someone outside of your community dares to speak for it/to it/of it... (except white HRC supporters who apparently have a perma-pass), but you take Bluenorthwest to task for the same?

LGBTers are a magical community, exempt from all social justice strictures, as we can be straightsplained to and tone policed at will by our heterosexual guardians who may appropriate at will to serve whatever political purpose is presently convenient.

It's kind of hilarious they don't even attempt to hide their double standard. Not even a little bit.

Don't let them try to rewrite history!

that's gonna stick to the wall

Racism? She promoted locking more people than any nation on Earth. Actions speak louder than words. Pontifications are meaningless. Try taking a close look at the Drug War and Mass Incarceration. I can't believe she's still clinging to it too. I expected her to pretend she had a change of heart but she's too stubborn.

are doing their best to drive wedges between us. I don't think it is working too well, but it it does we all lose.

Why in the world would anyone be proud to be an accessory to such a crime?

That is not going to help in November, no matter who gets the nomination.

I think we have had an awesome slate of candidates this year. I would proudly support any of them who attained the nomination. The opposition is not another Democratic candidate, but the lunatics riding the GOP clown car. Let's all focus on what we're trying to do here.

My best to you, BB.

As for November, she's assuming "Who else you gonna vote for?" is effective.

If we unite, we win. The extent to which we do not... well, let's just say that one should consider what are ones goals and whether a divided Democratic Party could ever achieve those goals.

There are some times when open eyes help, and blinders impede.

My best to you.

And religion. Dividing people into groups, setting them up against each other. An old tactic being used up until today.

The problem is that when politicians are in the pockets of the cardinals and bishops of Capitalism, their judgement becomes blurred. And rather than talking truthfully, they get their tongues twisted and forked. They pander to groups to win their votes and then implements policies that screws them up later. The "Super predator" statement comes to mind. Hillary has done nothing but dog whistle and gone sleazy in a desperate move. She is using the same tactics against Bernie Sanders as she did against Obama in 2008. And here you are, claiming that Hillary is somehow a uniting force. Nothing could be further from the truth. She is divisive, dishonest, and have taken from Karl Rove's playbook in how to run a dirty campaign. My bullshit detector has been finelly tuned since I did my own service. And Hillary reeks of it.

Social democracy is inlcusive. It applies to EVERYBODY!

Conservadems have no solution and should not pretend they run the democratic base, or uphold progressive principles. Conservadems are a part of the corrupt system, and should be primaried in every single state until money in politics is on the ballot, and we get a real progressive Congress to continue the legacy of Jimmy Carter and FDR.

DNC and DCL is obstructing this process. They are not the solution but a part of the problem. That's where we the people come in. Bernie Sanders is representing the PEOPLE and not special interests. That's where you are wrong. That's where Hillary and the establishment have duped you. I know it'¨s a hard pill to swallow, but it's time to wake up to reality.


She made four wrong decisions about wars. Will you trust her to make the right decision the fifth time?

&index=21&list=WL

Kind regards
A veteran

No one is trying to "silence" you. You are not a victim. Bernie did not say "economic issues were more important and would solve issues that others find very important." That is you spinning and swift-boating a candidate.

Disgusting.

Oh, and by the way, you are not a divider because you care about issues. You are a divider because you take positions inconsistent with the truth in an attempt to prop up your favored candidate.

IFILL: Senator -- Senator, I want you to respond to that, but I also want you to -- am I wrong? Is it even right to be describing this as a matter of race?

SANDERS: Yeah, you can, because African-Americans and Latinos not only face the general economic crises of low wages, and high unemployment, and poor educational opportunities, but they face other problems, as well. So, yes, we can talk about it as a racial issue. But it is a general economic issue.

SANDERS: And here's what the economic issue is.

The wages that high school graduates receive today are significantly less, whether you are white or black, than they used to be. Why is that? Because of a series of disastrous trade policies which have allowed corporate America through NAFTA and Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China, Secretary Clinton and I disagree on those issues.
But view is those trade policies have enabled corporate America to shut down in this country, throw millions of people out on the street. Now no one thinks that working in the factory is the greatest job in the world. But you know what, you can make a middle class wage, you have decent health care, decent benefits.
You once had a pension. Those jobs, in many cases, are now gone. They're off to China. Now you are a worker, white worker, black worker, who had a decent job, that manufacturing job is gone.
What have you got now? You are working at McDonald's? That is why there is massive despair all over this country. People have worked their entire lives. They're making a half, two-thirds what they used to make. Their kids are having a hard time finding any work at all.
And that's why this study, which shows that if you can believe it today, for white working class people between 45 and 54, life expectancy is actually going down.
Suicide, alcoholism, drugs, that's why we need to start paying attention to the needs of working families in this country, and not just a handful of billionaires who have enormous economic and political power.

Thanks for proving my point.

At no point during that speech does he say you you claim he says. He does NOT in any way attempt to silence you. He does not, in any way, say economic issues will solve everything social ill. He does not, in any way, say bigotries are solved by taking down wall street.

Take your false, misleading bullshit somewhere else. It may fly on a protected forum, but it suffers greatly under the light of critical, rational scrutiny.

other.

Which in reality, is the opposite for people who actually face these challenges.

How the hell you come up with that, when it was not said or even implied, is beyond me.

Him arguing to remedy one issue, economic suppression, which does disproportionately affect minorities and other oppressed groups, does NOT preclude him or others taking other actions, such as legal remedies, protests, social shunning, etc. to also effect change.

And at NO point did Bernie argue that we should ONLY focus on economic justice. Surely you can see that.

go Bernie!!!

nt

But no, you insist on trying to control me by implying I'm not with you on issues.

When you know that isn't the truth.

...this whole question of a president solving racism is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if you're Hillary or Bernie. Bigotry, racism, and sexism will exist regardless.

1. Nobody is trying to "silence" you
2. Bigotries and discrimination are not solved by ignoring the economic realities that prop up such bigotries.

Activist Protest Profiteering by Drug Companies, and Federal Refusal to Address the Crisis in AIDS Treatment Access.

The demands of the demonstration, articulated at a press conference before the action, included:

To the manufacturers of AIDS drugs:

Dramatically reduce the prices of AIDS drugs and make them available for all.

Broaden research towards usable AIDS treatments-and a cure-for all populations.

Fund treatment education programs targeting under-served groups.

To President Clinton and the Congress:

Investigate and restrict AIDS drug price gouging.

Guarantee AIDS treatment access for all.

Broaden research towards usable AIDS treatments-and a cure-for all populations.



http://www.actupny.org/%2010thanniversary/10th%20repor.html

In reality LGBT political activism has long addressed issues around and on Wall St, pioneering health care activism that is now often carried out by other parts of society, today there is a large focus on these very issues and that is not by accident.

please forgive me, but i'm having trouble following what you say here.

i respect your passion, and don't think anyone - on either side - is trying to quiet others' voices, let alone shame them.

and yet, here you are, telling folks who might disagree with you that "YOU ARE WRONG."

with all due respect, while i understand your feelings, do you see your own internal contradiction. it's hard for anyone listening to such contradictions to know what to do with them. but i don't know how you can interpret that as telling you to be quiet or shaming you.

just for the record, i posted a similar comment to a similar post recently and was blocked. is that how to deal with these differences, by shutting their voices? i don't get these contradictions.

so you know, i'm a 66 year old female. been around a few blocks many times. and i will share this with you, do with it what you will.

just as an exercise in self-education, take a moment to glance over the history of our civilization. human civilization. you'll find that, prior to that, for the most part, humans had to live a fairly equitable existence without resorting to divisions because we would not have survived. after civilization emerged, with domestication and the invention of writing - which, make no mistake was (to quote claude levi-strauss) was invented by men in order to enslave other men, to debt - that's when the hierarchies of "better than" and "less than" human (gods/kings and slaves) replaced a deeper morality of egalitarianism.

then take note of the moment this immoral sentiment was turbo-charged in the early 19th century with the emergence of capitalism and the industrial revolution. put that moment in the hockey stick graph that documents the catastrophic rise in global warming, and you'll see that the sharp bend in that graph toward off-the-charts exists at precisely that point.

then read naomi klien's this changes everything (or better, see the film), and see if you can't grasp just how it is that those at the top of this gawdforsaken food chain this destructive economic force don't use and exploit every division out there in order to hold on to their ill-gotten positions of power.

wall street is no more than glorified gambling. gambling exists for those at the top to exploit the rubes who risk the gamble. you may think this has nothing to do with the ills you list, but after you've explored the history i suggest here, then ask yourself, really, how is wall street not involved?

and the better question, how exactly do you suggest we solve it without ridding ourselves of the inherently exploitative wall street capitalism?

i do not doubt your sincerity here. i am simply asking if you have exposed yourself to all the facts.

and, by the way, we're neighbors.

He acknowledged that, for instance, the criminal justice system discriminates against African Americans, and that it needs to be reformed, and that mandatory minimum sentences should be abolished. He also recognized that women still are paid less than men, and that gay people face discrimination.

If you think that social justice issues can be solved without also addressing economic injustice, you are mistaken. Money is power in this country; if it were not, poor people and working-class people, hell even middle-class people, would be in a far better state than we are in now.

Bernie wants a political revolution for everyone. As it is now, only the very wealthiest people in this country get to call the shots for the entire country. I have lived long enough to know what America was like before the Reagan revolution and what it has become since then. Our young people are facing a very difficult future and we owe it to them to undo the pernicious effects of trickle-down economics and the economic, social, environmental and political devastation that it has caused.

Bernie may not be successful, but at least he is trying. I don't think that Clinton is prepared to take on the neo-liberal economic order that is causing impoverishment, misery and environmental devastation not only in this country, but also around the world.

Note to Jury: No candidate or candidate's fans were smeared or attacked in this post. I am asking a question in an attempt to clarify the meaning of the post to which I am responding.

More as props than pawns

I heard that recently somewhere...

at all and it is the cynical perspective being pushed by Hillary and her campaign that is false.

Bernie never said he didn't care about issues facing women, people of color, the gay and lesbian community, etc., and he never said he's ignoring those constituencies or trying to push them to the side.

As a Black man, I personally have no problem with Bernie's focus on the economic side of the picture because what he's pushing for will help many universally now and into the future. I think this line of attack is ridiculous and it shows to me that Hillary's campaign is desperately trying to find something that can do some damage, but it will fail like everything else she has tried.

nt

She'll turn on you. She will. She lined up behind cruel policy like tougher sentencing, policing, trade deals that sent millions of women and children into poverty and prison. Her policies unleashed a wave of terror creating refugee crisis and killed 100s of thousands - women and children suffered the most.

Scary to throw off the shadow government, yes I could see how that could be for Hillary. For the rest of us, not so much! By getting the money out of our politics means the government will be much more responsive to the needs of all of its citizens, this is what Bernie is talking about. Does it solve all of our problems, no, but it gives us the ability to solve them.

Excessive Force and Strip Searches Described; Giuliani Blamed for Climate.

(New York, March 27) -- Members of the AIDS activist group ACT UP (the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power) will hold a press conference at the Lesbian and Gay Community Center of New York (208 W. 13th St., between 7th & 8th Aves. in Manhattan) to condemn the behavior of New York City Police Officers during a recent peaceful protest earlier this week in lower Manhattan. The police had cordoned off most of the Wall St. area in preparation for the demonstration, and hundreds of police were deployed in a militarized manner and were commanded by Chief of Department Louis Anamone, who personally directed all police operations.



During the demonstration, 73 activists were arrested for committing acts of non-violent civil disobedience, including blocking entrance points set up by the police for employees working in the area. During protestors' arrest and custody, police employed brutal tactics, several of which are illegal, including strip searches, the intentional banging of heads on the ground, tackling from behind, restraint by officers' feet and body weight on necks, arms, and legs, kicking, dragging of arrestees face down across pavement, dragging of arrestees by hand cuffs from behind their backs, pulling by the hair, and use of derogatory epithets.



"At the end of the demonstration, a small group of us passed through police barriers planning to link arms and sit down in the middle of street, as a purely symbolic act of non-violent civil disobedience, not threatening anyone or the police," said Bill Thorne of ACT UP/Golden Gate, from San Francisco.

"I was immediately tackled full force from behind, and then my head was intentionally and repeatedly banged on the pavement at least six times. I was instantly subdued by several officers, all holding me face down by kneeling on each of my arms and legs, my neck, my head, and my back. I was subsequently kicked several times while officers hurled blatantly anti-gay and AIDS-phobic remarks at me. Throughout the assault, I was pleading that I could not breathe, and that I needed medical attention because I was bleeding from my forehead. I was then dragged face down into the police van. At no time was I ever warned to cease and desist or that I was risking arrest, nor was I told my rights or what I was charged with." Thorne was subsequently hospitalized for a head injury, and has been receiving follow-up medical care.
http://www.actupny.org/%2010thanniversary/brutality.html


But the OP says LGBT don't have any issues with Wall St, oh no, not one single issue!!!!

Just glorious. Loved every second of Blue's epic takedown.

I don't recall anyone saying "No you can't speak out and advocate and fight for for the issues that you care about most and which directly affect you." That's a strawman.

Nor has Bernie or any of his rational supporters said "Systemic racism, sexism? Naw. Not a problem."

What Bernie does say -- an addition to agreeing with you on the need to address these issues -- is that it is important to provide solutions to the systemic economic and political problems that are screwing everyone (except the very top).

Social and economic justice are directly related as two elements of the larger goals of making life less of a struggle and to improve the overall quality of life for everyone, in terms of the basics like jobs, healthcare, housing and a livable wage and opportunity to advance.

In addition to affecting the majority of the nation, problems like poverty, cutthroat competition for jobs and a Darwinian economic system exacerbate social problems racism, bigotry and social divisions.

Contemporary history over the last 40 years has proven that the GOP and the Oligarchs have successfully used those divisions among groups to defuse the ability of Americans to come together in a big tent to challenge their power and policies and trickle down message.

Would unity on economic/structural power and progress on economic equality eradicate discrimination, bigotry, sexism, racism and all the rest? Absolutely not.

But working to make life tangibly better for people of all races and genders and backgrounds is a positive in itself. And it would also at least remove some of the conditions that intensify racism, sexism and other ingrained social problems.

Dealing with those other dimensions requires a much more systemic, sociological and psychological set of actions and discussions beyond individual policies. It can, and should run parallel to the economic and issues of structural political power.