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mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 05:21 AM Feb 2016

In Fact, Argue Experts, Sanders' Medicare-for-All Numbers "Do Add Up"

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/02/12/fact-argue-experts-sanders-medicare-all-numbers-do-add

"It's indisputable that single-payer systems in other countries cover everyone for virtually everything, and at much lower cost than our health care system," PNHP co-founder says

...

But according to other healthcare experts, both Clinton and Thorpe are working with false calculations. Dr. Steffie Woolhandler, a professor in public health at City University of New York at Hunter College and co-founder of the advocacy group Physicians for a National Health Program, said Friday that the "numbers on single-payer do, in fact, add up."

"It's indisputable that single-payer systems in other countries cover everyone for virtually everything, and at much lower cost than our health care system," Woolhandler said. "Experience in countries with single-payer systems, such as Canada, Scotland, and Taiwan, proves that we can have more, better and cheaper care." For example, "if the U.S. moved to a single-payer system as efficient as Canada's, we'd save $430 billion on useless paperwork and insurance companies' outrageous profits, more than enough to cover the 31 million Americans who remain uninsured, and to eliminate co-payments and deductibles for everyone," she said.

In January, Woolhandler and her colleague Dr. David Himmelstein authored a response to Thorpe's analysis that found it to be based on "several incorrect, and occasionally outlandish, assumptions," including "administrative savings of only 4.7 percent of expenditures" and "huge increases in the utilization of care, increases far beyond those that were seen when national health insurance was implemented in Canada, and much larger than is possible given the supply of doctors and hospital beds.""Moreover, it is at odds with analyses of the costs of single-payer programs that he produced in the past, which projected large savings from such reform," the professors wrote.

Woolhandler said Friday, "A single-payer system could save even more money by bargaining with drug companies for discounts on drugs. Other countries get discounts of about 50 percent, and as the biggest customer we could have the bargaining power to get similar savings...Finally, single-payer systems have been better at controlling costs over the long-haul. Our medical arms race—with hospitals competing to offer expensive high tech care, even when they don't do enough to be good at it—has driven up costs and compromised the quality of care. In contrast, single-payer nations have used thoughtful health planning, to invest in expensive high tech care where it's needed, not just where it's redundant but profitable."

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stopbush

(24,396 posts)
2. The VHA is allowed to negotiate drug prices for its 9-million patients.
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 05:35 AM
Feb 2016

They average a 46% discount from the list price.

And per Obamacare, private insurance companies are also allowed to negotiate prices. They on average get an equal or even steeper discount than the VHA.

The only entity not allowed to negotiate drug prices is the federal government, and that effects only Medicare and Medicaid. These programs get only a 20% discount off the list price of drugs. Were they allowed to negotiate for their near 50-million patients, they would probably end up at around the 50% off mark.

It's unfortunate that most people believe that no one is allowed to negotiate drug prices in this country. Drug prices are being negotiated for about 5/6 of American insurance policies right now.

PatrickforO

(14,577 posts)
3. Single payer healthcare is also the most moral
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 05:39 AM
Feb 2016

approach, because it extends healthcare to ALL as a right. What is immoral is what we have now, where excellent healthcare is the privilege of the very few, mediocre healthcare is the privilege of maybe half, and millions still don't have health care. When I was a kid and I'd ask my parents about events in the third world, all the wars, warlords, murder, famine and even genocide, Dad would look troubled and say, "Life isn't worth as much OVER THERE as it is to us."

I'll amend that. WE are the ones who hold life not to be worth as much as profit. And THAT is immoral and very, very ugly.

uponit7771

(90,347 posts)
5. Why yes, of course... doctors, hospitals and pharma will accept half of what they make now because
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 07:11 AM
Feb 2016

... they'll feel revolution or being berned or something.

There's nothing in his plan outlining how he's going to make that happen otherwise we're just switching from private HCI to public HCI and that's less than 10% off the current cost while overhauling the whole damn system.

No... not his plan doesn't make sense because it lacks a lot of pertinent detail this is where Sanders lost me ... he didn't come up with something that much better than what is already been proposed.

Like a guy screaming at the cabby for not going through stop and go traffic faster...

His plan has glaring holes in it

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
11. Remember when Phil Mickelson was going to quit golf over a tax hike?
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 12:51 PM
Feb 2016

Well he never did.

Why not?

Because he is still paid very well for what he does.



A similar situation to what we have here. They can either deal with the change in compensation or go out of business. Even if they do (which they won't) others can then make the money that they don't want.


There are no glaring holes in his plan. Many other countries do this, we can too. There may be some issues during the transition, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.



I will now ask the question that I have asked many times and no Clinton supporter ever answers.

How will Hillary's plan extend health care coverage to the homeless?

Medicaid requires that you apply for it and then prove that you qualify. People without an address or state issued identification are unable to do this. If you can't explain how simply tweaking the ACA will extend coverage to homeless persons then you must admit that Hillary is not even attempting universal coverage. Those of us who do honestly believe that health care is a right see no alternative other than something along the lines of what Bernie is proposing.



Recursion

(56,582 posts)
6. Sure, it adds up if doctors and hospitals make half of what they make now while doing more work
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 08:03 AM
Feb 2016

Which is the step neither Sanders nor these people talk about actually implementing.

Thorpe doesn't assume that will happen (because Sanders gives us no reason to think it will happen), so he went with current reimbursement rates.

dsc

(52,162 posts)
8. His numbers assumed, until he changed them after criticism
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 12:46 PM
Feb 2016

that we would save over 100% on drugs. He has no, literally no details at all as to how he would hold doctors fees and hospital fees flat let alone cut them, and those are far and away the most expensive part of our medical care. That is what critics are pointing to.

 

november3rd

(1,113 posts)
12. Pirates In My Doctor's Office
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 12:55 PM
Feb 2016

One of the worst features of our current system is that we add a vast layer of expenses atop the sum of costs for medical treatment: the expense of subsidizing private health insurance companies.

Health insurance companies produce no medical service of any value whatsoever. Their sole function is to relieve the people of the burden of insuring ourselves at a much lower cost.

If pirates blockaded the Panama Canal and charged every vessel a hefty fee to sail through, they would be keeping the system restricted to those who could pay the tribute, ostensibly preventing too much traffic in the canal.

That's about all the service health insurance companies provide, too.

It's a stick-up.

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