I think we all know what that translates to.

Basically you want us to give her a pass for all the shit she piles on us. That is what all these loyalty oaths are about. Our candidate can shit all over your candidate and all his supporters, but what do I care, you'll vote for me anyway.

I believe the expression is "They shit on your head and expect you to thank them for the hat".

like reagan as their first president and find themselves less disgusted with bullshit than me.

How can I? I am still living under his shit!

I'm not so certain Hillary can count on my vote. No, Hillary didn't say it, but she never apologized for Albright's comments even when she was given the chance at the PBS debate.

When I am accused of being a racist because I called out Dolores Huerta for not telling the truth about what happened tonite, I don't know if Hillary can earn my vote.

When blacks and gays are accused of supporting Hillary because they don't understand the issues, its demeaning. Did Bernie apologize for the those accusations? He probably should. But, I think this is all part of the problem of rough and tumble politics. Our political system has been like this since the founding of our country, but when the anger gets so great that friends become enemies, then everyone loses. I support Bernie, but all I'll have to do is listen to 5 minutes of Trump or Cruz or Rubio to set my thinking straight and vote for Hillary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1800

The 1800 election was a re-match of the 1796 election. The campaign was bitter and characterized by slander and personal attacks on both sides. Federalists spread rumors that the Democratic-Republicans were radicals who would ruin the country (based on the Democratic-Republican support for the French Revolution). In 1798, George Washington had complained "that you could as soon scrub the blackamoor white, as to change the principles of a professed Democrat; and that he will leave nothing unattempted to overturn the Government of this Country".[6] Meanwhile, the Democratic-Republicans accused Federalists of subverting republican principles with the Alien and Sedition Acts, some of which were later declared unconstitutional after their expiration by the Supreme Court and relying for their support on foreign immigrants; they also accused Federalists of favoring Britain in order to promote aristocratic, anti-democratic values.[7]

Adams was attacked by both the opposition Democratic-Republicans and a group of so-called "High Federalists" aligned with Alexander Hamilton. The Democratic-Republicans felt that the Adams foreign policy was too favorable toward Britain; feared that the new army called up for the Quasi-War would oppress the people; opposed new taxes to pay for war; and attacked the Alien and Sedition Acts as violations of states' rights and the Constitution. "High Federalists" considered Adams too moderate and would have preferred the leadership of Alexander Hamilton instead. Hamilton, in his third sabotage attempt towards Adams,[8] schemed to elect vice-presidential candidate Charles Cotesworth Pinckney to the presidency. One of Hamilton's letters, a scathing criticism of Adams that was fifty-four pages long,[9] became public when it came into the hands of a Democratic-Republican. It embarrassed Adams and damaged Hamilton's efforts on behalf of Pinckney,[3] not to mention speeding Hamilton's own political decline.[9]

there haven't been surrogate attacks on Hillary. There have been dozens of lying scum attacks from Hill surrogates.

She has antagonized Bernie's supporters with her sleazy, Brock driven campaign.

She has screwed herself.

nominations and general elections. Jefferson & John Adams really went at it too. There was an NY Times article about it a few years ago. As I recall, Adams accused Jefferson of being a francophile and Jefferson paid someone to pose as a scientist to go around giving lectures on why Adams may be a hermaphrodite. Of course, they made up many years later and wrote a series of extraordinary letters to each other in their later days on the future of the nation. Those letters are published and well worth reading.

With an attack ad by Adams entitled Thomas Jefferson wears his pantaloons in the continental style.

That will make it even.

Good thinking on your part. Which Republican do you like? They're all pretty good if you're homophobic, racist, sexist, or Islamophobic. Who do you like best?

I know, we could go back and forth all day but it's to let you know that she has gone beyond the pale and there is no coming back for some of us.

will write bernie in before voting for her. I'm sick of her campaign. Bernie saved her ass a couple of times and she still acts like this.

The gorilla in the room is the possible indictment of her and bill for their bs. Of the two, I will continue to support the one who doesn't have a federal indictment hanging over his head.

Because I heard that until the primaries are over, they aren't doing that. Or maybe it's that they won't tombstone people. Meh -sorry about that.

edit - oh! That was your post above?! Wow, I'm sorry again.

I'm with you on the other thing.

Enjoy your brief stay at DU.

you may just be a Republican.

And nothing progressive can happen after the election if we put ourselves in constraints during the campaigb=n.

Besides which, there aren't any progressive ideas that are vote-losers anymore.

involvement in every local and state and congressional election. And that they win elections all over. I hope many Sanders supporters will get involved with left leaning politics for a good long time. This country needs to move economically much further to the left. I'm not against Bernie or Hillary for winning the nomination. I've just too often seen energetic idealism turned into bitter self-absorption. I'd love to see people joining leftist struggle for their entire lives and staying involved in whatever ways they feel most comfortable. For me, that's at a local level.

Sounds like the old hurt and rescue routine. Or the old protection racket.

That isn't going to fly with me.

Because FEAR!!!

and that ain't good for 99% of the rest of us. How exactly is that better than someone with an R next to their name?

Once the TPP is the law than all human rights are secondary to profits.

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater."

There comes a time when someone has to take a stand and stand for something. That time is now. The entire party should be taking that stand but some are still a little behind, at least that's what I hope it is. If they are stuck in the center/corporatist mindset then they risk tearing the party apart.

We are at a time when Reaganism and trickle down has shown itself to be a fraud. It doesn't work. And anyone who supports the centrist is supporting more of this same voodoo economics because the banks will not be held accountable and corporations will continue to control our govt.

Enough of this. It's time to get back to the FDR Democratic Party. This DLC/Third Way thing just didn't work out. It's ruining people's lives. It already has ruined thousands, millions.

No, if anyone is to pivot it must be those who are clinging to the old fashioned thinking, the old guard, for the times are changing and they are holding us back. Do our youth not deserve to have a say in their future? Do they not deserve a govt that is beholden to them and not big money? Do they not deserve to dream and believe those dreams might become a reality?

I will not pivot to support the old guard. I stand on principles and I support the new guardian.

.

A candidate has to earn my vote.

Sorry, no Third Way pivot to follow HRCs arrow to the right.

I can think of nothing worse than saying in essence, "Who else are you going to vote for?", it doesn't fill people with enthusiasm to run to the polls.

Hillary.

eom

If she wins the nomination. We will lose the general. You can bank on it. Too many people will never vote for her, and many more will love to vote against her, in droves.

I, personally, know that no one in my family will vote for her, they may not vote at all because of her. And that will seriously hurt down ticket races and issues. She will destroy what is left of the party.

We can only hope that the repugs have not completely gutted our rights before we elect a truly worthy women as president, Sen. Warren, in 2020.

But we can prevent that. Elect the man who will win the WH. Bernie!

eom

If she delivers on even half of her positions, it would be the most progressive presidency in memory.

If she delivers on healthcare by doing nothing?
Or if she delivers on telling those banks to cut it out? Which she claims she already did, to no effect.
Or maybe her position to do airstrikes in Syria and to take a hard line stance against Iran.
Very progressive.

I'm only asking because she takes so many opposing positions on the same issues that its hard for me to keep them straight. Which ones are the ones shes for today?

Just stop. Open your eyes and ears and stop ignoring her endless lying. It's like people enjoy it or something.

look, people here have said she is likely to pivot toward the center - and that seems so just based on what candidates always do. The question is how will they govern, what will they try to accomplish, what will they get done. There will be a lot of issues that come up and no one will be perfect on all of them - that's never happened before and it's never going to. It's just as naive to get in a tizzy about how she won't accomplish everything she says she will as it is to get in a tizzy that Sanders won't accomplish everything he says he will.

She's s puppet for Wall St, lining her pockets with corporate cash, and a lifelong Republican who hides behind a (D). She's a narcisist, a war-monger, no more a progressive than Richard Nixon (who she's to the right of), and utterly incompetent as Sec of State (where they're still cleaning up after her messes and scandals).

She's the first candidate ever to be the subject of two FBI investigations.

She's s puppet for Wall St, lining her pockets with corporate cash, and a lifelong Republican who hides behind a (D). She's a narcisist, a war-monger, no more a progressive than Richard Nixon (who she's to the right of), and utterly incompetent as Sec of State (where they're still cleaning up after her messes and scandals).

That is the best summation of her I've read to date. It hits all her low points.

I place more belief in her 'no we can't' toeing of corporate line than in her following through on any of the more liberal things she has espoused most recently.m

And no, I will not pivot. I have voted for the lesser evil too many times. i will not do it in this general election.

Right now she's making sure fewer and fewer Sanders supporters would support her if she gets the nom. Maybe she should have considered the consequences before acting?

She won't want the GE if she gets nominated.

That kind of "daddy knows best" might work okay for conservatives, but is this really the way to heal, regroup, and kick the Republicans asses?

I agree with you as far as the notion that no matter who wins the Primary season, it will take all of us.

I agree with the notion that we do have 2 great candidates.

But, telling progressives they "will pivot"? Not the best way to win friends who are liberal and progressive.

I can imagine for a minute, had Senator Sanders pulled ahead in Nevada, his supporters coming here and giving me marching orders like that would not have been the way.. at all.. for me to want to support their candidate.

If we really want to win over, and grow our party from the VERY impressive movement Senator Sanders has brought to the Democratic Party table, should Hillary win, it's my opinion that the way to start would be with "would you", "this is why", "please consider", and "thank you".

IMO, it also wouldn't hurt.. at all.. if we could use this growing support to push for more candidates with visions like the Senator into the House and Senate it would both benefit us as a party, and us as a country.

for reason, logic and decency.

i wanted to rec this comment because i do not have it in me to be so gracious to such an obnoxious and condescending subject line.

but you managed it

As it is, with the ethics I'm seeing on display in her campaign, I can only say that the GE is going to be a rout.

I can't support a campaign that supports war, supports Wall Street, supports destroying the Labor Class with policies like the TPP, and that supports dirty campaigning.

It's Bernie or bust. Hillary will not win the General Election. She will not receive Republican votes, she will barely get any independents, and after the filthy campaign she's run, I doubt the "extreme" left will support her.

Her strategy is a losing strategy. It's poisoning anything and everything around her. She should be ashamed.

eom

Well said. She isn't ashamed though, not in the least. If she had to physically break someone's arm to win, she would do it without one second's hesitation. I'm supposed to obediently line up behind that?

As a 65 year old "cradle Democrat" I am tired of pivoting. After the explanation of the DNC of how the super delegates "deserve" more input I finally realized The Democratic party has lost its 'one man one vote' and I am out of here after the primary. No more lesser of two evils for me. I will write in who I feel should be president and I can only hope four years of Trump will swing the voters of this country back to their senses. Perhaps revitalize the revolution. No more for me. I do not see Clinton as the devil or anything, but she is definitely not my choice, I feel she will be ineffective as president (if she could even get elected in the GE, which I doubt) and just go along with the way things are and I feel the establishment pushing her and forcing her down our throats is very divisive. I can't believe I am giving up on the Democratic party after voting D for 44 years in every election, but when they expect me to fall in line again, and do everything they can to stamp out the grassroots in the party; Well, I am tired of it and my one vote will count how I decide from now on, not how the establishment decides for me. I will become an independent and my vote will be from the heart from here on out. I decided this year that the only money I am donating is going to those I can really support, Bernie Sanders and Ted Strickland, for the first time I ignored the DNC, DGA etc. plea's for money and now I finally understand why the Democratic party is losing support. It has managed to drive me away finally.

"More Of The Same." And we can't afford more of the same...

and that concerns me.

I know other Bernie supporters and I can promise you--Hillary and her supporters are not helping themselves. False charges, painting him negatively, attacking his supporters...not good. He is an icon to many.

It looks very bad.

It exposes the political machine at its worst.

I can promise you--there will be many Bernie supporters who will not show up. They will throw their hands in the air, come to the conclusion that you can't beat the machine, that there's too much corruption between the establishment and the press and that some things will just not change and especially with someone like Hillary--who they have no reason to trust anyway.

As the attacks continue that anger just grows.

I do plan to vote for her if she wins but I don't like it at all. And part of me wonders why I bother. But the other side is just so horrible I don't feel like I have a choice. It's the "lesser of two evils" again. It's a horrible feeling to vote like that but I will do it.

Others won't.

She's peeling voters away that she is going to need later. I know it doesn't matter now--but it will then.

...pivots first. If he does, we'll be okay. If he declares independence, we may lose - but hopefully we'll have the Supreme Court for some protection.

That would be the notion that every Dem is going to 'pivot and support the winner'. There was a poll done asking just that.

14% said they would NEVER vote for Hillary, 27% said they'd be 'holding their noses' to do so.

If Hillary is the nominee, look for a Republican White House.

You go to the polls with the voters you have, not the voters you wish you had.

I'd also have to have a bottle of Pepto-Bismol and a barf bag with me to vote for Hillary. She is absolutely the worst Democratic presidential candidate in my lifetime, which goes back to the Eisenhower era.

who have gone off the deep end for Bernie. They might have a hard time finding a sane perspective once Bernie gives up.

About issues central to party values as a sane option to vote for. Slapping a "d" behind your name, doesn't make you one.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Ciao.

Hope you enjoy President Trump / Cruz / Rubio

And btw it won't be the fault of us Sanders people: no amount of Dem turnout will be enough to elect her. The public hates her in case you didn't notice.

Fortunately there is ONE Dem candidate who CAN beat every Repub they've got. Guess who? SANDERS.

Watch this 2 days old Young Turks video all the way through, and if you can still back Hillary without simply dismissing the entire content of what's said in this video, then get back to me...

I can't speak for anyone else.

I haven't voted third party since Barry Commoner. That was when Reagan beat Carter. I blamed myself for the next eight years.

Mind you, I've been tempted. I almost voted for Ross Perot over Bill Clinton (I was a big Jerry Brown supporter and was disgusted at the dirty tricks his campaign used against my guy) and for Ralph Nader over Al Gore (the guy who did more than anyone to push through NAFTA). I didn't. I'm good at holding my nose. I even voted for Jon Corzine for governor of New Jersey over Chris Christie. That was a hard one, I couldn't stand Corzine. My hand kept moving toward the Green Party line but I knew that Christie would be a disaster and so I did my duty and then went home and took a shower.

Not everyone thinks like me, however. Nasty little tricks like the Dolores Huerta kerfuffle are going to rebound and smack Clinton in the face and turn off people who have a less cynical view of politics than I do.

I can do more than hold my nose and vote. I was a Dean supporter but enthusiastically supported and worked for John Kerry because he made me feel that my support was welcomed and needed. At this point if Hillary wants more than a grudging vote from me she needs to do the same. Ultimatums and threats won't cut it.

Oh and I do hope that if Sanders turns this around and wins the nomination that you will do the same.

one thing the left and right have in common is their contempt for the sleazy Clintons which is well deserved.

she would depress the left vote while inspiring the right like nothing else to vote against her, a formula for disaster in the GE.

Right now, I'd say stick your pivot where the sun don't shine.

She's fighting for the powerful and the rich.

I'd say if the GOP has a half-assed candidate we're f'd. I've never seen so much snark, bitterness and just meanness. Sometimes I think I accidentally got to Freeperville. I'm really tired of this shit on DU.

This isn't 2008. This isn't 2012. I fully expect a "mid-term" sized turnout of voters and that's not a good thing. When you get younger voters revved up and they suffer a giant disappointment, they don't automatically switch to the last candidate standing like older voters do.

and all of the other Third Way wish list. I cannot.

Just because a candidate has no integrity does not mean I have to give mine up.

Will she even try?

I will either write in Bernie's name or vote Green Party.

The only motivation for many will not be a fresh start for the US....but fear of Cruz/Trump/Rubio

The only selling point for 35 years

obviously,we will all make up our minds about what we are going to do with whatever our choice(s) are in November...

what I AM SURE about is that we rarely address what choice other voters will be making, you know, the average semi-involved American voter...

I think there is a palpable hate, and that is the correct word, for all things Clinton among a large segment of the population...this is not the my-side-versus-your-side battles of the Democratic primary that we experience here...

and that hate for the Clintons does not singularly make Bernie a better choice for the Democratic Party...his winning or losing the nomination will be the result of the success/failure of his campaign and message to Democrats...but the Party and all of us should not be so myopic as to dismiss the level of opposition participation that we will be facing in November if Hillary is the candidate...

not the smears, the 'hate-everything-Hillary' attacks, not Benghazi, not emails, not servers, not speeches...that crap is set in place at all times just waiting to be utilized...

I'm talking about the level that voters will turn out to make Hillary lose...not to make Trump/Rubio/Cruz/other clown the winner...that will just be the icing on their cake...they will turn out in mass to MAKE HER LOSE...

so then, the question becomes...what can Hillary do to crank up turnout for her, increase the voter pool, motivate people to come out TO VOTE FOR HER?

old church saying: "Preaching to the choir doesn't put people in the pews..."

The flaw in Clinton triangulation is that not everyone votes based on ideology.

Those millions who vote based on perceived character, perceived integrity, perceived honesty, and perceived trustworthiness are not subject to Clinton triangulation.

We nominate Sanders or we suffer 4 years of the Rubio-Kasich administration. If it is Clinton versus Rubio, then the general election will not even be close, and the DNC's thumb on the primary scale will be a huge part of the reason.

She should not have needed to go this route. She has the entire Establishment of the party supporting her and yet her campaign felt the need to play the race card and at various points directly insult the youth vote. This is not how you bring about unity for a general election.