2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSo is Paul Krugman now under the bus?
Are we now going to hear how Paul Krugman is an out of touch, elitist, tenured Princeton professor who is in cahoots with the 1%, doing the bidding of the billionaires, or that he's a DLC, corporate funded hack.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/opinion/varieties-of-voodoo.html?_r=0
On Wednesday four former Democratic chairmen and chairwomen of the presidents Council of Economic Advisers three who served under Barack Obama, one who served under Bill Clinton released a stinging open letter to Bernie Sanders and Gerald Friedman, a University of Massachusetts professor who has been a major source of the Sanders campaigns numbers. The economists called out the campaign for citing extreme claims by Mr. Friedman that exceed even the most grandiose predictions by Republicans and could undermine the credibility of the progressive economic agenda.
Thats harsh. But its harsh for a reason.
The claims the economists are talking about come from Mr. Friedmans analysis of the Sanders economic program. The good news is that this isnt the campaigns official assessment; the bad news is that the Friedman analysis has been highly praised by campaign officials.
cut
And theres an even larger issue here: Good ideas dont have to be sold with fairy dust.
Mr. Sanders is calling for a large expansion of the U.S. social safety net, which is something I would like to see, too. But the problem with such a move is that it would probably create many losers as well as winners a substantial number of Americans, mainly in the upper middle class, who would end up paying more in additional taxes than they would gain in enhanced benefits.
By endorsing outlandish economic claims, the Sanders campaign is basically signaling that it doesnt believe its program can be sold on the merits, that it has to invoke a growth miracle to minimize the downsides of its vision. It is, in effect, confirming its critics worst suspicions.
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MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)quickesst
(6,280 posts)....months, , but it's okay. He's in fine company.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)Tammy Baldwin, Al Franken, Harry Reid, et al
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)The firm supporters/endorsers of the other candidate, who are recognized experts in their fields and/or have solid histories of public service ... the list would be far shorter.
CorkySt.Clair
(1,507 posts)Your most devoted Bernie fan hates his guts too cuz Wall Street and oligarchs and sparkleponies not received.
Yavin4
(35,445 posts)Methinks there's a pattern here.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Just another establishment mouthpiece.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Look at the tire tread marks on him.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)kcjohn1
(751 posts)When Krugman is considered liberal icon. Krugman supporter of NAFTA (doesn't think TPP is a big deal either). He has come out against single payer when someone actually put on the ballot. I don't mean this sarcastically, but please tell me why he is considered a liberal? It seems like our public liberals are those that hammer Republicans and aren't crazy instead of traditional liberal values (large social net, equality, poverty issues, etc).
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)On those that make $250,000 a year. Screw him. It will work. He's had a long relationship with the Clinton's so I wonder why he would say that Bernie's plan won't work. What did he say about HilLIARy's plan? Oh that's right, he didn't. Just bash Bernie and get that money from HilLIARy.
dsc
(52,166 posts)Beowulf
(761 posts)is what these four economists and Krugman are peddling.
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/ResponsetoCEA.pdf
Read it. His critique is devastating.
onecaliberal
(32,880 posts)If you want to promote corporatistsnwith your fantasies and lies, don't expect us to go along with it.
Jitter65
(3,089 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)mcar
(42,364 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)and yes, the jury thought that was perfectly acceptable, by a vote of 1-6.
The bus ran over Krugman a few times in that thread.
Sid
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)I don't even KNOW you.
LexVegas
(6,086 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)(Krugman from 2008, http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/11/opinion/11krugman.html ).
Poor guy didn't get that position in the Clinton administration he seems to desperately want.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)stumbled upon some bias...........
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)I wont try for fake evenhandedness here: most of the venom I see is coming from supporters of Mr. Obama, who want their hero or nobody. Im not the first to point out that the Obama campaign seems dangerously close to becoming a cult of personality. Weve already had that from the Bush administration remember Operation Flight Suit? We really dont want to go there again.
Whats particularly saddening is the way many Obama supporters seem happy with the application of Clinton rules the term a number of observers use for the way pundits and some news organizations treat any action or statement by the Clintons, no matter how innocuous, as proof of evil intent.
Paul Krugman
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/11/opinion/11krugman.html
He sure does love Hillary!!!!!!
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Lather, rinse, repeat.....
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)Laughing Mirror
(4,185 posts)Go off script, you're out the door.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)that has been touted the last 35 years have been successful?
What model does Hillary have that should sway PoC over to the Hillary camp and that is supported by world economists.
If so, in what way?
Did she have a boring, professorial economic advisor, or does she use a Wall Street consultant?
If the American model is the best one, then who have the surplus, and who has the deficit? Norway, or USA?
As a note:
There is no reason to argue "but Norway is smaller"...
The issue is exactly how the money and resources you have are being spent! You are not utilizing your resources and wealth in a wise way! Native Americans could have taught you that 200 years ago!
If you can afford bailing out banks, but can't afford foodstamps and education, something is wrong!
If you can afford feeding Pentagon but can't afford healthcare, something is wrong!
If you can afford to incarcerate 2 million people, but can't afford to end the war on drugs, then something is wrong!
If banks are too big to fail, but families should lose their homes, then something is wrong!
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)national socialist in D. Trump. Yeah. Something is horribly wrong with the way things have been for the past 35 years.
Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)You are being told how to vote...
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-vampire-squid-tells-us-how-to-vote-20160205
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)He's been long known as someone who thinks more along the lines of Keynesian economics. He criticized the bailout as not going far enough, leaning too heavily on tax cuts, focusing too much on the banks, and not including a jobs proposal.
The man is anything BUT a defender of the neoliberal economic policy that has dominated the US landscape since the time of Reagan.
Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)He's in favoring of healing a broken leg with a band aid...
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)NO.
Krugman has been arguing that Obama should be bolder than FDR. Bernie merely wants to imitate FDR, if his supporters here on this site are to be believed. So who is more progressive?
Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)And in what way does that favor Hillary's policies?
Besides, Hillary doesn't even have the wish to go half at what she claims she will. And she always talks about how SHE will fix things...
Stopping TPP is not on Hillary's nor Obama's agenda. But it is Bernie's agenda. His major litmus test is ending Citizens United. Where has Krugman advocated ending Citizens United?
Where has the Star sprangled awesome economical politics been successful since the Reaganomics venom started leaking into people's mindset and the Scandinavian social ecomic system failed?
Care to gvie your two cents on those questions?
(What seems to me is that Hillary supporters think that problems are isolated and problems must be solved in an isolated area, and ignore other parts that causes the problems. It's like putting a band aid on a leak in Hoover Dam.)
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)You can feel free to google his views on other things.
This sad attempt to paint Krugman as a neoliberal economist is patently absurd. And no, Hillary supporters do not believe in putting band aids on leaks. We just don't believe that you can work with pipe dreams.
Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)with money in politics and Wall Street corruption.
That she takes money from an institution who built it's fortune on theft, exploitation and slavery doesn't make her look any better.
So why Krugman should endorse Hillary when he is against Citizens United, is a mystery to me.
It's like finally getting it right (after the disastrous Reagan era) on the pre-exams, and the flunk miserably on the final exam.
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)was largely about Hillary?
She has more reason than anyone to hate it.
Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 21, 2016, 10:47 PM - Edit history (1)
to get rid if it now, during the campaign, do you?
She's using the same dirty tactics and have the same donors. You think she's going to cut off the hand that feeds her?
Don't be naive!
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)By telling me that she does not SEEM eager to change it to YOU, and by calling me naive...
Bye bye
Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)to indicate that she will?
Apparently, Hillary supporters are not the friendliest kind....
As a veteran, I consider a vote for Hillary an insult to anyone who's ever bled for her and her neo-liberal policies.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)than I do. Everyone is entitled to their own political opinion - no matter how much I disagree with it.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Once can afford such a collegial stance when they personally won't experience hardship as a result of shitty political decisions.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)and not run off to Hillary's equivalent of a Jilly Stein if I don't get my way. He's still running on the Democratic ticket and he's still thousands of times better than any Republican.
But I have to admit, his supporters are making it very hard for me to do it without holding my nose.
President Obama did the best he could with the Congress handed to him - and even pulled a few E.O.s where he could when they didn't. None of his policies have been shitty for me, but then again, I live in California where we actually voted for a supermajority of Dems in our legislature and a moderate Dem Govneror when the rest of the country couldn't be bothered to come out and vote in 2010 because they got butthurt.
Gov. Brown's and the Dem Legislature's policies, in addition to President Obama's and congressional Democrats, have improved our lives significantly.
I believe Hillary will expand on President Obama's policies and improve the country even more. You don't. That's fine. But snarky attitudes are NOT going to endear your candidate to undecided voters, nor help bring up Hillary supporter enthusiasm to turn out and vote for him should he win the nomination (which I don't see happening, but since I'm not clairvoyant and knowing the GOP would rather have Bernie to run against than Hillary, anything can happen).
We've suffered greatly under Duhbya Bush and Aaahnold Schwarzenegger, so I do know hardship - first hand.
one_voice
(20,043 posts)I will personally experience hardship as a result of shitty political decisions.
I'm not disavowing people that I'm in agreement with 70% or better most of the time.
The Republicans can go under the bus because I generally never agree with them. I say generally because a broken clock....
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)a few who are doing that. Joan Walsh is another one. If they'd at least come up with an approach fresh enough to not be instantly compared to the same piece from 08 it would be far more convincing. Perhaps if Joan did Paul's 08 columns this time and vice versa? Anything to reduce the level of self parody that the living internet is making of that sort of redundant certainty.
november3rd
(1,113 posts)In spite of the optimism, there may be a thread of reason to Freidman's projections.
The big problem with socialist economic programs is sabotage by the right wing.
When Allende was elected, the major banks all declared war on Chile, denying them credit, and urging other countries in Latin America to desist in trading with them.
I could easily see the same thing happen to a Sanders administration here, especially with the likes of Paul Krugman and the Clinton Foundation joining forces with Wall St. to undermine the political revolution in the minds of the public.
frylock
(34,825 posts)James Galbraith debunked his woo.
Jarqui
(10,128 posts)Bill Moyers published: The New York Times Invents Left-Leaning Economists to Attack Bernie Sanders by Dean Baker
While there are undoubtedly many left-of-center economists who have serious objections to the proposals Sanders has put forward, there are also many who have publicly indicated support for them. Remarkably, none of those economists were referenced in this article. In fact, to make its case on left-of-center economists views, The New York Times even presented the comments of Ezra Klein, who is neither an economist nor a liberal, by his own identification.
It also misrepresented the comments of Jared Bernstein (a personal friend), implying that they were criticisms of Sanders program. In fact his comments were addressed to the analysis of Sanders proposals by Gerald Friedman, an economist at the University of Massachusetts who is not affiliated with the Sanders campaign.
Friedman is not affiliated with the Sanders campaign. lol
ECONOMISTS IN SUPPORT OF A $15 U.S. MINIMUM WAGE AS OF 2020
170 ECONOMISTS AND FINANCIAL EXPERTS IN FAVOR OF SEN. SANDERS WALL ST. REFORMS
Politifact Confirms Bernie Sanders Healthcare Plan Will SAVE Every American Family $1,200/Year
As I said in my post at the top, this was a hurried political hit job by Clinton. It's hardly conclusive and hilarious that they went after a guy who is not with Sanders campaign (I didn't know that).
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)when he sold out the 99 for the 1
The Traveler
(5,632 posts)and you are propagating the disinformation.
According to Galbraith, Friedman employed conventional methods of analysis to arrive at his results. Friedman is also a Clinton supporter, by the way. lol! Further, Galbraith has been unable to find any documentation on the methods by which these four CEA folk arrived at their rebuttal of Friedman's work. Which would seem to mean there was precious little, if any, analysis behind their pronouncement. While they claim rigor, and trumpet a conclusion, they have not presented their material ... which is very unusual to say the least.
Krugman did not vet their work ... he just ran with a story for obvious political purposes. And that, my friend, is damning.
I am attaching Galbraith's letter for your reference ... but I doubt it will alter the debate. I find it ironic that Clinton people will claim Sanders people believe in rainbow farting unicorns while propagating crap like this and presenting it as established fact. In the mean time, independent thinkers have seen a pattern that has emerged from the Clinton camp that suggests an eagerness to indulge in fact free assertion. Ms. Clinton may have eked out a narrow victory in Nevada, but her own reputation, as well as that of her campaign and her surrogates, is not coming out of it undamaged by their own words and deeds.
J. K. Galbraith's Response to CEA
Trav
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)respected Civil Rights icons who endorsed Clinton under the bus (and endorsement is all they have done, they have not said anything bad about Sanders). It all sounds so Scandinavian to me.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)For myself, I just did my taxes and the tax software said I was in the "upper middle class." Would I mind paying more taxes and not getting a quid pro quo? NOT AT ALL!!!!! It would not break me, and there are so many things that need doing.
As long as I'm convinced it's being made good use of, by all means raise my taxes, and I don't ask for anything else in return except the results.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)Come on ya'll and join us under the bus. We are having a great time!
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)He was always on the limousine. Nothing he is saying now is surprising, he has always been an establishment pundit who happens to be a bit left of the very right-leaning "center."
And just in case a certain piece of bullshit comes up: it's not a Nobel prize, by the way. It's a prize that the Bank of Sweden gives to economists it likes, which it calls a "Nobel Memorial." It was established long after Nobel's death (since he might not have been for it). It was created in order to legitimate the ideological pseudo-science of economics as if it can be compared to biology, chemistry, etc. It's gone to Milton Friedman. It's a fashion thing.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)He is a shill
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)"a substantial number of Americans, mainly in the upper middle class, who would end up paying more in additional taxes than they would gain in enhanced benefits."
Ok, let this social security recipient, formerly of the upper middle class, educate you.
When I went to apply for disability, people would comment on all the Cadillac and Benz. You gop would comment that is proof of fraud, but no, it was not. You see, a lot of these Upper middle class types lost their job, many of them engineers or techie types that got decimated by h1b visas, or many people who were five years from retirement that got let go so that the company did not have to pay a pension. So many people who realized that they were one paycheck away from agony, one month away from doom, just like wall street likes it. They never thought they would be here, and the look of fear in their eyes was a sight to see, because they knew they never thought this would happen to them.
The point being is, this system does not allow the upper middle class to wrap themselves in a security blanket and say "we are safe" no you are not, because one medical bill or legal bill can destroy everything you made. That security the state provides would be there if you need it, and the truth is, you never know if you WILL need it.