2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumCan you imagine what our land would be like if all the candidates were..
....as honest and truthful as Bernie is?
Can you imagine what elections would be like if ALL candidates had as high a rating for trustworthiness?
If that were so, the debates would be around policies.
Not fighting about propagandized slights.
No outright lies.
No cheating.
No false flag incidents.
Just honest.
Wouldn't that be paradise?
Buzz cook
(2,472 posts)I think he was, but he was also a liar and a behind the scene manipulator.
Was Carter a good president?
I believe he was much better than others do, but his presidency was not successful. He was however an honest and honorable man.
So honorable that even though he suspected that activists in Iran would over run our embassy in Tehran if he allowed the former Shah to enter the United States, he did so.
He did so because he believed that giving aid to our former ally was more important than keeping up a relationship with Iran and thus lost the embassy and it followed that he lost the election and we suffered and suffer the influence of Ronald Reagan.
And yet Carter's action do reflect the best of honor and honesty.
So who would you prefer, Carter or FDR?
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)You're parroting right wing points, may want to look into that.
Buzz cook
(2,472 posts)http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/carter-hostage-crisis/
Even after it became known that the Shah was suffering from cancer, President Carter was reluctant to allow him entry to the United States, for fear of reprisal against Americans still in Iran. But in October, when the severity of the Shah's illness became known, Carter relented on humanitarian grounds. "He went around the room, and most of us said, 'Let him in.'" recalls Vice President Walter Mondale. "And he said, 'And if [the Iranians] take our employees in our embassy hostage, then what would be your advice?' And the room just fell dead. No one had an answer to that. Turns out, we never did."
As I said Carter suspected the outcome of allowing the Sah into the US. How is that a republican talking point? Because facts have a liberal bias.
Yes Reagan and the media actively undermined Carter and Carter's attempts to free the hostages. There is even a theory that the military failure was sabotage.
But the first cause was Carter.
So, Carter or FDR
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)Bernie has a really good record, but he's from a 97% white state that has a very solid liberal history. He has not had to serve nearly as complex a constituency as many other politicians. Further, to the degree he has had to honor the complexities of Vermont, he's been a politician like any other. The obvious example of that is gun control.
I think too many Sanders supporters are blinded by hero worship and fail to see him for who he really is. He has great ideas and is a good man, but he's playing the game just as much as Hillary is. I think many blacks, gays, and other minorities see that. It does not mean that he's worse than Hillary; it just means that he's no saint either.
Cassiopeia
(2,603 posts)List off just 3 issues that Hillary stands strongly for that you support.
I'll go first.
Bernie stands for:
A $15/hr minimum wage. Many say that would immediately bankrupt the nation, but the numbers show differently. Every time we have had a big jump in minimum wage we have seen an explosion in growth and stability. Government assistance has fallen and debt fell.
Reinstate Glass-Steagall. It will be an entire new bill with the core focusing on dividing commercial banking from investment banking.
Free public college and universities. This is NOT a new idea, it was the norm until Reagan. Now even somebody that goes to a local community college can come out of it with few job prospects and $50K in debt. That's absolutely insane, especially in this day and age.
So, why do you support Hillary? What does she really stand for that you truly believe she will FIGHT for when elected to be POTUS?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Tuition at community colleges does not approach that amount.
Also free public colleges and universities was not the norm until Reagan. I don't know where you got that one from.
So name two solid issues Hillary stands for and will FIGHT for as POTUS.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)She outlines all of the issues that she stands for and will fight for.
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/
Whether you believe her or not is up to you, but it's not like she doesn't have them.
Cassiopeia
(2,603 posts)What do YOU believe Hillary is going to fight for. What has she already done that leads you to BELIEVE she will fight for things we need?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And are on the opposite side of the Republicans on each of them.
That's why I will do everything in my power to ensure that either Hillary or Bernie ends up winning the White House.
So, list of just two specific issues Hillary will fight for and has a history of backing. It really should be easy, she's been in the national spotlight for decades. There should be something...... anything...... that she really stands for and will fight to change for us.
There has got to be some reason I want to vote FOR her?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)That's where that comes from.
I suppose a person could spend $25,000 a year for living expenses in Los Angeles while attending a free community college especially in an expensive area like Santa Monica. Transportation -- having a car for the evening classes -- an apartment (even shared with a roomate) will run probably close to $1000 per month. That's a good $15,000 right there even with an older car. Then there is food; there are books. $25,000 per year is high, but going to a community college is not cheap. And if you don't have a job or can't get one??? Then you run up the debt.
Times have changed. You have to know young people who are in college to realize how bad it is.
And the job market for people without degrees is terrible. Massage schools are doing well. Then there is acupuncture. Beauty school.
Nothing wrong with those jobs and professions. But you have to have customers. And that means you need a middle class with the money to pay for a hairdresser, a manicurist, etc. And our middle class really is shrinking.
I think that the Hillary supporters have trouble understanding that. That is why the young who are facing this difficult economy, facing the bottom rungs of this hopeless economy, are supporting Bernie.
Cassiopeia
(2,603 posts)Northern VA where I hail from. Moved away because a shitty 1 bed apartment in a bad neighborhood can run $1200 a month and they make you feel like you're getting a good deal.
Books alone can run $2,000 a semester.
And that was 10 years ago!
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Just free tuition.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Tuition at public universities was obviously much lower than it is now, but it was not free across the country.
And with respect to your second paragraph, the proposal is to make tuition free, so presumably, even under that plan, your hypothetical person would still run up a great deal of debt in living expenses. It isn't the tuition of the community college that would create the debt. That situation would not be impacted much by it being tuition free.
I agree with your other points.
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)I actually support Bernie.
But, there are four reasons I like Hillary:
- She is a woman and the fact is that it's a disgrace that our nation has not yet had a woman leader. She is the type of woman who has a chance at leading. If a woman gets elected it would create a new world for little girls. The glass ceiling would truly be broken.
- Her overall record is quite liberal (as senator, she was ranked 11th in liberalism), and she has handled diverse constituencies, as First Lady, as Secretary of State, and as US Senator from New York. Unlike Sanders, she has truly represented gays, blacks, and other minorities. Sanders had not really had the opportunity. Sure, he's taken the right stands, but he did so without the risk of political consequences.
- She has been attacked and maligned for 25 years -- called a murderer, a lesbian (as if that's an insult), a liar (with the greatly exaggerated Benghazi and email scandals), weak for staying with her husband, a warmonger, described as cackling, loud, a screamer (as if Bernie isn't one), and many, many more. I tend to have sympathy for people who have been beaten as much as she has.
- I think she has a better chance than Bernie of winning, and that's why the right has been attacking her so fiercely. I think if Bernie gets the nomination, the entire right wing machine will use it's operation to imply he's unAmerican, communistic, atheistic, and going to screw the middle class. They will succeed in labeling him because they have the money to do so. Plus,
But, on the issues themselves, I support Bernie. He's the only candidate I've given money to. He's a true Democratic Socialist. I lived in Scandinavia for a number of years and saw how effective Democratic Socialism is, even with the high taxes. If Bernie could get elected and implement his ideas, the United States would be a much better place.
Hillary is a woman, she's been called liberal but you don't provide a solid position she stands behind to back that up, and people have been mean to her and she's stood up to them.
How about some solid positions she takes on the issues we face. Something we desperately need to change the downward spiral we all face. Obama slowed it down, even put the brakes on a few things, but we need CHANGE. What will Hillary do to FIGHT for change?
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)...
(1) I'm not as libertarian as Bernie, and I agree that there are times the US needs to insert itself into a conflict. We should be involved in the humanitarian crisis caused by ISIS, including going after ISIS. I like Obama's strategy very much.
(2) We should keep some troops in Afghanistan if necessary; after all, if we pull them out, then all we did was set up a lot of the more secular, more progressive Afghanis as sitting ducks for the Taliban.
(3) On Iran, I agree there should be some prerequisites before we negotiate with them. After all, that is a country that allows the executions of teens for being gay. Carter, who was generally a bad president, was the first president to make human rights part of our foreign policy -- I think that needs to remain important, and if Iran wants to meet with us, they should show some willingness to at least discuss human rights.
On domestic policy, I'm basically with Sanders. Hillary offers Sanders light, something more mainstream and reasonably good, but Sander's single payer, $15 minimum wage, free college, and increased Social Security benefits are all good ideas.
One complaint I have is that neither candidate plans to do much for young people who left or graduated from college with massive debt and can only secure fairly low paying jobs. We need to find a way not only to lower the interest rate for these individuals, but also the principal.
PADemD
(4,482 posts)As Senator, what did she do for the homeless in NY?
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)They are both paying lip service to the poor, but Hillary does seem to be trusted more by the black community, which is poorer than the white community, and she has done a lot of good work for children and families and legal aid.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)Because he couldn't find honorable work. Calm down, I'm joking.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)as much as possible.
And the first step toward getting money out of politics is voting for Bernie Sanders.
If Hillary, what with all the money she has collected from every crook and cheater in the country, wins, we will never, never, never be able to get rid of Citizens United.
Because she and Bill LIVE OFF OF THE CORRUPTION THAT CITIZENS UNITED BEGETS.
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)But yeah,I can imagine it
Bucky
(54,027 posts)I suppose there'd also be fewer incidents of random angry white people beating up random harmless gay & Muslim people.
In fact, white people in general would be less angry.
jonjon
(68 posts)EUROPEAN!
ladjf
(17,320 posts)Carter and Sanders. That's it for me.