Do you see hill taking Ohio with her rah rah tpp history? Do explain.

you're a posting PotatoChip!

Colbert did a lot of yam jokes about Boehner before Trump went candidate.

He is trnding upward and is within single digits if Hillary nationally

that Mr. Sanders can beat Trump but Ms. Clinton cannot.

However, getting out and working to make it happen will reveal much the opposite.

When it's a challenge, you have to have the spirit to see how much of a challenge from cheaters and corporatists enabled a POPULAR VOTE to surge.

Get out.

Trump will only win if Bernie supporters abandon all progressive values and either vote for him or abstain from voting, AND if he we pull a substantial portion of the Hispanic vote, which is unlikely given his racism.

I would be voting for war and the Third Way assault on social programs and for fracking and the TPP and increased H-1B visas. None of those things are "progressive values". That is why I support Bernie.

If it comes to the GE, it's not about your preferred list of issues. (And even on those, she is more progressive than you give her credit for.) The winner-takes-all electoral system in the US means that the GE is always about two coalitions battling it out. In this election, if it's Trump vs. Hillary, it will be a coalition of right-wing racists and evangelical nutjobs vs. a coalition of pragmatically progressive values and racial inclusion.

Which side (of those two) are you on? The presidential election is not about you, and it is not about whether you love a candidate. I don't love Bernie, but if he's the nominee, I'll campaign for him and vote for him. Because I know which side I'm on, and it sure as hell ain't the side of the neo-Fascists who support Trump.

Maybe it would be best to not be asking progressives to abandon their principles until after the primaries, eh?

And, no, I do not think Hillary is one bit progressive about anything but herself being president. I don't believe a word she says, at this point.

This premature pledge-taking is getting ridiculous and off-putting.

Maybe we need another section - all the directives to just assume Hillary has already won are just annoying and off-putting and don't accomplish anything odd.

(the one you are responding to), you will see clearly that I do NOT assume that Hillary has already won.

If you have a problem with the topic of this thread, then take it up with the OP.

Especially when Sanders is our best bet to beat Trump.

disheartened and not voting in the primaries. Fail!

I don't get demoralized.

I am not a single issue voter, and hillary is on the wrong side of every issue I care about.

Fracking.
Monsanto.
H1b visas.
Outsourcing.
Min wage.
IWR.
Syria.
GMOs.
Too big to fail.


"We came, we saw, he died" she laughed. Snipers fire and a corkscrew landing, repeated on video at least three separate times when it was already known to be a LIE.

With Hillary it is always I, I, I - this presidential run is all a out her, not We, The People. And if she is the nominee we will lose the White House. She cannot win. People do not trust her (with good reason, she shoots herself in the foot with her stupid lies). And no, she is NOT "likeable enough"

Young people will not bother coming out to vote for her. Progressives like me will not vote for her. I am done holding my nose and voting for the lesser of two evils.

Someone gives you a massive list of grievances they have with your chosen political hack, and you block 'em.

...Isn't that what Bernie supporters are accused of?

The problem I have is when people, here on this Democratic site, openly say that they will not vote for the Democratic nominee.

I don't demand loyalty pledges, but I do feel free to ignore people who are wiling to hand the election to the Republicans. If I wanted to engage people like that, I'd go to Free Republic.

You are willing to help Donald Trump win the presidency and appoint the next Supreme Court justices so that you don't have to make a compromise.

It sounds like you may be just as "I I I" as Hillary.

If you really cared about the future, you'd do everything you could to defeat the Republican candidate.

I'd happily vote for Sanders or Clinton to help defeat a right winger.

Maybe you are too young to remember the Bush years and Nader's part in that.

I will NEVER vote for Hillary under any circumstances. NEVER!

I was speaking a few days ago with a couple of friends. Both female, both independent and only marginally in tune with politics. Both were intrigued by Bernie in a favorable way. Both were similarly intrigued by Trump, also favorably. They didn't seem to care much for any of the other Republicans. But both despise Hillary. They were of one voice in saying that if Bernie is the nominee they would "probably" vote for him over Trump. But if Hillary is the nominee they would "absolutely" vote for Trump.

I know it's only anecdotal, but it gave me pause.

make a decision about the Dem nominee based on the idiocy of your friends?! Sounds to me like they're already Trump voters who will abandon Bernie anyway if he's the nominee, once the GOP attacks start.

and principles. Not a coronation and a Trump boogeyman.

even if we're coming from different sides in the primaries.

The one using a Trump boogeyman was the OP. My point was indeed that arguments about how Hillary might lose to Trump in the GE, or how someone's friends say they will vote for Trump if Hilary is the Dem nominee, will not convince me to switch to Bernie. I vote on experience, issues, etc., and not on a trump boogeyman.

persuade anyone to switch support. My support for Bernie is based on my hatred for the Third Way, war, fracking, the TPP (and TPIP), cluster bombs, and Wall Street influence. Nothing on earth is capable of persuading me to vote for someone who is FOR those things. I just could not do that.

are anti-establishment. Millions and millions of people are totally fed up with establishment type candidates. Hillary represents the establishment, no matter what she says, even though she might not all the way, but voter perception is she does, and they think she will continue the SOS.

Trump, is like the American Idol candidate. The 2016 GE election will be interesting and quite concerning/scary at the same time. I know so many people that are tired of the Clinton's and they are not some far left wing types. In fact, many are conservative type democrats.

wow - and you may wonder why some people don't vote. Why should anyone vote if it's not about them? It may sound selfish but I do vote for my and my family's interests. I think most people do.

I vote for my interests, and that of my family, too. AND for the interests of the nation, and that of the world.

What an election is not about is one's own purity list or one's own hurt feelings.

I have never, in any post, demanded loyalty pledges from people to vote for Hillary, but if people indicate they will sit the election out or vote for the GOP if she is the nominee because they do not deem her "pure" enough, then I do respond. And I myself always, always pledge to vote for Bernie if he's the nominee. It will hurt like hell if Hillary loses, but the election is not about me or about my hurt feelings. It's about the people who will lose healthcare if a GOP president, alongside a GOP-controlled Congress, dismantles the ACA. It's about the minorities who will suffer if someone like Trump gets in. Etc.

Go ahead, feel free to chastise me for that attitude. I'm a progressive. I care about what happens to other people.

Nope - won't do that. I understand your POV and have voted for the lesser of two evils many, many times before.

It is called voting intelligently for your own well being, which is what most people APPROPRIATELY do! That is why we have a democracy. And we want a democracy that works for people, and not to choose between two corporate servants that have different ways of screwing you to benefit themselves, that has lead our country and so many other countries in this world to get in to the screwed up states we are in, and we are told "No We Can't, we must vote for which overlord that will screw us less!".

If voting for a candidate that doesn't align himself with the overlords to force you in to that choice, then sorry, most people are going to vote to have a more "pure" system. If you don't like that Democrats will likely lose with Clinton when they work FOR the economic royalists instead of against them in the ways that FDR had traditionally done strongly when he was the leader of this party, then you had better accept that the party is going to vastly change or properly DIE if it continues the direction that the Koch Brothers paid the DLC and the Clintons to start on when it started its downward path!

I don't see how your comment is a response to the topic we've been discussing, which is a hypothetical matchup between Hillary and Trump.

... while she's supported this American worker SCREWING program (not to mention screwing the workers in it that are made in to indentured servants). Who's the voter going to think in this instance who's for the American worker? I think Trump will get more voters flocking to him worried about their jobs than voting for her who they will CORRECTLY perceive has been conveniently with institutional power paying off corporate media, etc. to AVOID confronting her on this issue that she back in 2007 "strongly supported". So she will really have no way to not appear to be aligned with the Tata and Infosys corporate entities that are scamming all workers with this program and who've sent her and her husband a lot of campaign donations, etc. in recent years.

Quite frankly on this issue alone, it is an incentive for me not to vote for either one of them, as I can't really in good conscience vote for either of Clinton or Trump, especially since my IT career has been trashed over the last decade or so from both free trade programs and H-1B programs making our industry in to a contract job industry that pushes many American workers aside, especially as they grow older.

Sorry, but many like me aren't going to vote to screw ourselves more! That's the way it is!

More of the same ol' same ol'. I can't get excited about that.

Character and still get his supporters on the fear of trump is nonsense.

How about working to change that, then? Stopping ceaseless attacks on Clinton might help.,

Because I agree with you.

The coming together to "Voting for the lesser evils" thing will not work this time as Hillary campaigning has already PO'd enough of Bernie's base enough that they won't vote for her even if he himself says so. And indies and other see her as a corrupt corporate DINO. That leaves only her base. And that's not enough to combat the repugs who will unite just to beat her. Combined with a low turnout due to having two candidates no one else in inspired by (DWS democratic party dirty tricks took out the one who did inspired them) and bingo, welcome president Trump.

The only good thing about this is will will force a shake-up of the democratic party and/or a lot of folks becoming democratic independents. But hey, that's my .02 cents.

even if its Hillary because allowing a Trump or a Cruz or Rubio is 1000x more disgusting prospect....I saw the nader voters not give a crap if bush got elected but compared to the these 3, bush was "reasonable"....so no...in the end, the left will not allow a hateful racist bigot to enter the whitehouse unless they hate america more than they hate hillary.....and if a trump or cruz or rubio gets in....the left will be 100% responsible for it and america will deserve what we will get. Believe me, america will be forever changed..people on the left can put the own selfishness above voting for hillary....but they can't stand and whine about how awful the gop president is....THEY would have given him to america...knowingly

"and if a trump or cruz or rubio gets in....the left will be 100% responsible for it"

HELL, NO.

If centrists demand that Hillary be the nominee and Hillary can't get the votes to win, the fault lies squarely on Hillary and her supporters who demanded it be their way, or the highway.

They've been warned often enough that a large chunk of people simply won't vote for her in the general, and if they ignore that and make her the nominee, it's their own damn fault for sticking their heads in the sand, NOT anyone else's.

She's completely unacceptable to a large swath of both the left and indies. Nominate her and it's YOUR FAULT when we lose.

Last edited Mon Feb 22, 2016, 02:04 PM - Edit history (1)

sharp enough to keep us from going over the edge.

They insist on making a shit sandwich then bitch because people don't like their cooking.

This isn't 2008. Sanders supporters recognize that our country is an oligarchy. Unless you are filthy rich or a large corporation, politicians simply aren't interested in doing anything about your issues. The Clintons are the embodiment of the problem. You propose addressing the problem by offering more of the problem. And you have the gall to blame the rise of Trump on us? I don't socialize with Trump. The Clintons do.

The stump speech writes itself for Trump. "Hillary is a bought and paid for candidate. I should know because I have given money to her. She takes my calls. She's done favors for me. She came to my daughter's wedding. I'm too rich to be bought."

Nothing progressive can happen if we don't address the oligarchy who have a chokehold on this country.

:ROFL: TOUCHÉ,
That is funny.

We have a real chance to change things up this time. We have a candidate who is anti Wall Street/big banks, against unnecessary war, pro single payer healthcare and has as clean of a record as you can find in D.C.

So nope - if Hillary is nominated and then she loses the GE, I blame those who didn't support the TRUE progressive in the first place. We will not take the blame for the country going down this time. WE are trying to do something about it. Hopefully others will join us.

The largest group is independents. And I suspect they are not as afraid of Trump as you think
At least not as much as they are of Hillary.

If Hillary loses this election the only one responsible is Hillary...no more victim blaming.

is a portion of republicans.....I place nader supporters, bernie supporters in the "left" category.....I have been independent my whole life but support democrats, progressives and liberals because the alternatives are disasters for america....

America is not a teaparty conservative country....they influence the elections only when democrats, liberals, and progressives sit home and not vote

Which is where we are if Hillary is the one.
She has made it clear that she will seek no change and I believe her.

But Democrats and the GOP neither have a majority...both are in the 30% range...independents are at 40% range. They will decide the election. And that does not favor Hillary.

And that is where the problem lies, just as it did in 2008. So yes, President Trump it may be, as incredulous as that sounds.

candidate. They sit home and pee their pants feeling warm and cozy while the republicans win. I will vote for whomever the democratic candidate is. If one does not do that, they are voting for a republican presidency by default.

default? What baloney.

If they can't earn peoples' votes then they won't get them. Voters don't owe any politicians anything.

unless there are completely hateful of our country and I don't they are.....hillary will win a landslide..

...or be disgusted by Hillary's Republican campaign tactics. It's unnecessary the bridges she's burned so far.

that they would take their ball home and NOT support Obama if he was the 2008 nominee....some didn't but the great majority did vote for him....I see it and read all over DU...politics isn't bean bags and I find Sanders supporters to be about the thinnest skin people around here as they ban anybody with a contrary opinion immediately and go out of their way to report post that "hurt their feelings"....all proving how thin their skin is when discussing politics....in todays would, thin skin doesn't work and differently doesn't serve bernie too well either

...or expect better from our candidates? Throw the sink at the Republicans...at least they deserve it.

more than twice as many than are blocked from the Sanders group.

I think you have the thin skin thing backwards and the number of bans prove it.

Bernie supporters attack Hilary left right and center, day in and day out, even repeating right wing nonsense. And Bernie's whole campaign rests on that negativity.

But it's Hillary who is negative when she dares to criticize St. Bernie. Yeah, right.

...I don't judge a candidate by their supporters or surrogates. I'm talking about only things she's said. No candidate can wrangle the internet. It's not a fair way to judge anyone.

No. He has plenty of substance, even if not always the details in numbers that I'd like to see.

But Bernie himself, and his campaign in general, and his supporters overwhelmingly, are all waging an extremely negative campaign against Hillary, twisting her every word, suggesting that she has changed her votes based on campaign contributions. The reason why you don't see that as negative campaigning, is because you simply believe it to be the truth.

Funny how the impossible was somehow possible with your guy in the driver's seat.

If you really dread Trump so much, I'm sure you'll put work into preventing him from winning office.


You vastly, vastly overrate his appeal outside the racist reptilian core of the Republican Party.

I will be leaving the country asap.

I'll move overseas.

You'd have to be delusional to think at a time when the majority is against status quo establishment politics, they would ever elect Hillary Clinton. And in addition to her top of the establishment heap status, she is also the least trusted & least liked.

Sounds like a winner!

Hilary was an important part of that presidency and his most trusted confident his entire political career. If she is such a despicable person as many on this board have concluded, then I suppose that they will enjoy Trump's Fascist presidency when he turns the country into a police state rounding up millions of illegals and shipping them across the border after he gets done banning Muslims from to our melding pot nation. What is sad is that he actually has a following, if not being down right frightening.

After what we have gone through during the presidency of Bush and his pack of neo-cons from the PNAC, I would gladly welcome eight years of "Clintonian" policies. Having them back in the Whitehouse would be reassuring that the nation is in good hands as compared to any Repukian. The very thought of Trump, Cruz or wishy-washy Rubio being president should be enough to make any Democrat vomit.

As much as I admire Sanders and his unbending consistency of supporting the working class, I have to conclude that he can not attract the votes of the minorities that are crucial to win. I also can only conclude that his wide-sweeping policies are not feasible within the present political climate. Yeah, they sound great, but really?

FDR did the impossible, proving its possible.

Bernie is our new FDR.



Its a tough climb with the media working against him, but the country is ready for change.

Why do you think most of US voted for Obama??

The reason people, especially the young and Black community voted for Obama was their hope for change. It soon became apparent that the Republicans were determined to oppose any measure that he proposed. People are sick of he gridlock in Washington, but many don't want to admit that it is totally the responsibility of the Republicans. Their hatred runs deep for Obama and is in my estimation greatly racially motivated.

If Sanders is president, and that is highly doubtful despite the sentiments of this board, the gridlock will be just as great as that which Obama was faced with. If Trump is the Republican nominee, and that appears to be a real possibility, he will smear Sanders as a wild eyed communist who will destroy capitalism. Lastly, aren't many who are supporting Sanders just a bit delusional in actually believing that he can achieve anything more than Obama was able to do? The fact of the matter is that the Republicans have been able to secure a intensely devoted constituency by building a grassroots base starting with local government, evangelicals and statehouses. It will take a massive effort for the Democrats to regain control of congress and until they can do so, little progressive legislation will ever materialize.

the minorities will vote for Trump or not vote at all??

I think you're wrong. I think that they would come out in droves for him.

women
blacks
Hispanics
catholics
Vietnam vets
and the list goes on and on of groups of people he has pissed off.

He did fine with Hispanics in Nevada. Plenty of women are for Bernie. African Americans are not going to vote Republican.

The only info we have right now about how Sanders would do in the general are head to head polls, in which he does considerably better than Hillary.

"He did fine with Hispanics in Nevada." If the he you are talking about is Trump
that would be a tough deal because the republican primary in Nevada hasn't been
held yet.

end of story

But i could be wrong, i have been wrong b4

Trump has a ceiling amongst Republicans let alone the entire electorate. He represents the poster child for what the RNC's 2012 postmortem analysis urged the party to avoid in 2016. The African American, Latino and female vote will largely vote Democrat if Trump were the nominee.

and we all know of his demise. Not pretty.

there are a ton of people on DU yukking it up over Trump.

I bet President Trump will have the last laugh if Hillary is the nominee.

I think Bernie would be in tough against him, but at least it would be outsider vs outsider

Hillary doesn't even have a chance imo.

Agree with everything you've written, here and on other threads.

I'll be calling him President Rump for the rest of his term.

Not even close. The GOP is treating him with kid gloves.

Because your entire modus operandi is slandering Hillary, it's becoming rather pathetic, really.

her record would state that she is for:

Destroying the environment via fracking, the reprehensible shit Monsanto has done, H1b visas denying trained Americans STEM jobs, outsourcing jobs to the third world to deny even MORE Americans jobs, a minimum wage keeping a middle-class from regrowing, keeping people trapped in a cycle of poverty, the destruction of Syria under her watch as SecState, bailing out her fucking corporate overlords with the PEOPLE'S TAX MONEY-- it isn't slander. It's issues that me, and people like me not only cannot ignore, but will not condone in the White House.

Seriously.

emphasizing her loss to you. I suspect you'll decide to vanish when hilly loses.

Trump even sounds at times like he could be in favor of some sort of single payer health care system on this and other issues he's a shape shifter one day pro abortion rights the next against. People can see in him what they will.

He excoriated Bush on the Iraq War in terms that would make Michael Moore green with envy. What makes anyone t hink he won't do the same to Hillary who voted to authorize it?

Yeah, I could see him winning over blue collar Democrats, especially white men and plenty of women as well who've seen their jobs and their husbands jobs go overseas. Hillary seems to be doing her best to drive the youth vote away. Leaving the only truly reliable groups supporting Clinton will be blacks, Hispanics, committed Democrats and those liberals who see through Trump's promises.

Will it be enough?

Republicans and Democrats alike have been throwing the kitchen sink at Hillary for the past 10 years! Trump's message can win him the Republican nomination but it's not going to win him the general election.

as evidenced by his remarks on Mexicans, McCain, 9/11, the Pope and much, much more.

And he knows he is bulletproof, "I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose any votes."

So it is actually Trump that has thrown the kitchen sink at the American people and come out grinning.

Unfortunately for him, his voter base is not big enough to win a general election unless Democrats just don't vote.

Look at all those hypothetical general election polls Sanders supporters love to look at. They show Clinton has a sizable advantage over Trump, much more so than over any other Republican. If Trump is the nominee, Clinton is guaranteed to win unless Democrats stay home in protest.

because you are absolutely right that Trump has about 35% of the electorate. The rest find him abhorrent.

Trump has never broken 37% on polls.

The field is narrowing. Trump has peaked at just over 36% of the vote.

Trump is the out-flyer in their election. All of the other candidates are vying for the same Base. Trump has tapped into, and built his base, but as the other candidates drop out, Trump is not going to get much of the support they had.

It's looking like it's eventually going to come down to Cruz or Rubio, and when one of those drop out, just about the entire support the one had will swing over to the other.

Bush has dropped out now, his support is going to anyone BUT Trump. As more drop out, and their base consolidates, Trump isn't going to get much of it.

At this point, if I was a betting person, I'd bet on Cruz or Rubio. I'm hoping it's Cruz, I think he'll be easier for Bernie or Clinton to beat out. I'd also kind of enjoy seeing him "Birthered".

They can't damage their brand enough for my satisfaction.

After 8 years of a Democratic Party president in office, this should have been an easy year for them to take the White House back.

I'm sooo thankful they ran this clown car of jokes and satire for our amusement and paving the way for our candidate (either one) to renew our hold on the White House.

Trump's celebrity has the possibility of expanding his base with new voters in state after state if he continues momentum. Winner take all states also play into his hand. I can see a Trump nomination after all. In the end Republicans will unite to vote against Hillary.

And to them, that is the beginning and the end. Everything else, as shown by decades of evidence, is just shifting with the tides in order to put a smiling face on the head of neoconservative dreams.

The most important thing is that Bernie loses. The rest, they could truthfully care less. The homeless, disabled veterans, the mentally ill, all baggage to them. As long as they are still allowed to profit off them and their continued suffering, all is well in Hillville.