par for the course. When you take ALL positions it does get hard to keep it all straight.

The first woman president ever.

LIE.

Oh, right, it's who she is.

Her SOS record is abysmal from Iraq to Israel to Iran to Libya to Honduras to ISIS. Her IWR vote, continual record of flip flops such as gay rights and torture, her record on trade, her massive speaking fees to Wall Street and faux outrage that it doesn't impact her and in the next breath blaming Republicans who take large campaign contributions as being in the pocket of those donors. Her love of a war criminal Henry Kissinger, and on and on it goes.

I get that many women want a woman President. I truly get that, but surely if a man had this kind of record and showed this kind of hypocrisy these same women would be running in the other direction.

1. voting for Hillary the personality
2. happy with the status quo and want to reinforce it

and when Trump rolls out her Goldman transcripts during the GE we will be told to shut up and circle the wagons ... It just makes me want to puke.

in the GE, THOUGH.)

or very poorly informed

albeit a depressing summation.

I - a 70-something white male - want to see a lefty woman president - I REALLY do! I just want one worthy of the office. One worthy of the people that might put her there. Hillary does NOT even come CLOSE to qualifying.

I fit your demographic and have been politically aware since I followed the 1956 conventions. I see today's Democratic Party as being to the right of the platform that DDE was elected on. To me Sanders is a REAL Democrat, and sad to say the only real democrat running for the top office.

DU sure isn't what it used to be when it was forbidden to use a Democrat's own words to discredit them. Next thing you know you'll be posting videos that SHOW her saying these obviously taken out of context words! Where's my fainting couch?














sarcasm

And, for good measure, "You're doing the GOP's job for them!".

"Not me, I never voted for $hillary Clinton"

and thinking (good thing I can go self delete all my comments and posts from 20011/2012)

just sayin............

That said the most horrible things about Clinton, he made Cali look like a current Hill. supporter.

I wonder if he scrubbed all of those Hillary attacks from '08 or if some still exist.
He currently thinks she is the Female Jesus.

You decide.

That needs to be posted on this thread.

But this lying, spinning, morally bankrupt woman gets a pass on everything.

on the things she's promised the banksters she WILL do in office.

They promised their base tax cuts, repealing the ACA, defunding Planned Parenthood, stopping the Iran nuclear deal and reversing the gay marriage ruling. They made these promises with the knowledge that they did not have the 60 votes in the Senate nor control of the veto pen in the Oval Office. RESULT: They alienated their base to the point that they are now embracing a so called "non-Establishment" fool like Trump. In short, they are experiencing a total meltdown on the Right. Bernie looked to the Right and thought "Hey, let's get in on that Republican act". Why ? To replicate the Right's meltdown ? That is what the backlash looks like when a party or politician grossly over promises. No thanks.

I don't doubt Sanders knows what the GOPukes are doing. On the other hand, attempting a false equivalency argument to describe this campaign is just, simply, silly.

I haven't heard anything like that since, well, the Big Dog started that ball rolling.

HRC is a fairly representative specimen of a typical politician who will literally promise/swear anything to gain an advantage. She is surrounded by people with a clear stake in her victory who will also say anything to gain an advantage. She is supported by the "establishment", including most of the shrills in the media.

Opposing HRC is somehow equivalent to the Trump campaign, or the Tea Party Movement? Is her view and the establishment's views the only ones allowed in deciding who will be our nominee? Is there any point to describing the Democratic Party as being democratic? Challenging the establishment's choice is somehow unDemocratic?

We are somehow a threat to the Party because we dare to think there is a better way into the future than continuing the blind subservience of some to the economic interests of Wall Street?

Well, golly gee! This is not a Tea Party movement, or a gaggle of racist, sexist thugs like those who support Trump.

This IS democracy, Trust, and sometimes it ain't pretty.

May 26, versus June 16

"Welfare" is code for "Communism."

Almost every single time.

Coming in the 1,000th republican like Hillary derangement thread here at good old DU ...

Bill, Hillary, Chelsea, and Clinton surrogates have all treated us like shit during this campaign.

Bernie and Jane have not done the same to Hillary supporters.

Perhaps that's why we're so pissed at Clinton. Maybe. Just a wild guess I'm sure.

the only people I know now who are more deranged over Hillary than the conservatives I know are the Bernistas I know.

And, sorry, I am voting Bernie and am beyond disgusted with how you people treat Hillary voters here.

Its the same bullying and poor me victim rationale for it that I have heard from conservatives going back to the 90s when they were beating up on the Clintons then.

And do you enjoy them using right wing talking points like "free stuff" and "socialist"? Free stuff seemsto be the new one.

.

.

Most times, as this is, not near equivalent, justifying it ...

I replied to this ...

When Hillary and her surrogates attack Sanders they sound like Republicans.

I am voting Bernie for two reasons

1) He is by far more right on the issues
2) He out and out champions progressive policy with equivocation

But, I have posted here repeatedly his free college thing is bullshit, the math does not even begin to add up, much less the logistics of implementing it, a political nightmare ...

Sorry, it is totally fair game to call that out.

And, while I pull my hair out over this country being so damned stupid to not only not want single payer, but to fight against it tooth and nail, people need to know that having it does not mean "free" healthy care, we ARE going to have to pay for it ...

you are fighting to keep Goldman-Sachs in gold. You are fighting to let the Clintons reap millions and millions. They already are in the top 1% of the top 1%. How much graft do you think they want? You and me are on different sides of this class war. Your side is not Democratic. I hate to break it to you but the god Goldman-Sachs doesn't love you and won't trickle on you.

"The choice is stark, keep living under corporate rule under Hillary and watch things get worse, or go with Bernie and fight TPTB to regain our Representative Democracy!"

THIS is how deranged bernistas are here ...

Goldman-Sachs has given Clinton at least 650,000 cash for her personal wealth (approx 50 million). How can anyone not see the quid pro quo involved?

"The choice is stark, keep living under corporate rule under Hillary and watch things get worse, or go with Bernie and fight TPTB to regain our Representative Democracy!"

"Take the chance - accept the challenge - join the movement that can Change the Narrative. "

that have been forwarded by Republicans for the last quarter of a century ?

Very different reasons.

We will just have to agree to disagree on that point.

You need to observe things a little better then.

Yes, I am a Hillary supporter. What's more, I'm a supporter of a Democrat reshaping the Supreme Court. I have flirted with the idea of starting a thread in an effort to discuss what a Republican replacing Justices Ginsburg and Breyer would mean to our hopes. A 7-2 Right leaning Court would eviscerate Pro-Choice, Affirmative Action, Voting Rights, Worker Rights, Claas Action Rights. A 7-2 Court would render the EPA toothless as well as Anti-Trust actions. I cannot get my head around risking such an outcome by demonizing the likely Democrat nominee. But, perhaps that's just me.

her surrogates are demonizing a large part of the coalition that is needed to beat the Republicans. They have been making it extremely personal during this campaign.

If you can't see that as a huge and concerning problem that we are facing, you need to observe more closely. Perhaps Hillary supporters should be communicating with Hillary and her campaign to tell her to Cut It Out. It's extremely important that she does indeed do so.

This isn't that difficult to understand. Hillary will have a more difficult time getting Independents, the youth, and after her campaign some progressives to support her. Period. I don't know how anyone could think that candidate would be a stronger or safer bet for the General Election.

...causes all her adult life. Ya'll are so righteous as you repeat the tired right wing lies we've been hearing for decades.

ties with Wall Street? Her friendship with Kissinger and Allbright? Her program of sending refugee children back South of the border to face near certain death? Her support for TPP? And so on and so forth.

What do the conservatives attack her on, basically? Their all consuming hatred of her and her husband which will draw every single knuckle-dragging white racist out on election day to vote against that damn Hillary. They may remember VInce Foster, or Travelgate, or that cattle deal, or Benbullshit, or, or, or...

They will turn out because they HATE her possibly even more than they hate Bill, if most reading this can understand that.

And there are a LOT more of them than there are making up ANY of HRC's supposed firewalls.

And Trump would be opposed by the Establishment? Trump is a huckster and a con man, a prototypical NYC real estate developer. If he runs that Establishment will not oppose him. They know, as much as they dislike him, they can deal with him, make deals with him. That is what he does.

In the meantime this party will continue to be run by the DWS and others. The two party system will be dead. FDR will be forgotten. LBJ will be just another tax-and-spend leftist. Carter won't even be a footnote in the new, approved Fundamentalist history books.

Fortunately, as odd as it sounds to say this, by 2020 I will most likely be dead (you think about that a lot when you pass your 70th Birthday). I won't have to live in the oligarchy forever.

I feel sorry for my grandkids.

Go back to sleep.

I've been hearing Clinton's lies all these years. Yes some GOP lies are just that, but most come from the source herself, and himself.

I have never seen her fight for progressive causes or for left wing liberal causes I have seen neo-conservative causes neoliberal causes and the parsing of language ... I have seen her stand up for Wall Street and capital, I have heard her say abortions ought be rare no abortions just ought to be, I have watched her on the board of wal-mart I have watched her say she has stood up for GLBTQ rights but then of course there was DOMA, there was Honduras and Haiti and the list can go on endlessly
I am not righteous there is nothing right in me I am a leftist and left handed but I am not going to capitulate to the DLC trying to present Republican values as Democratic values ...

Monopolistic enterprises that take iover their own industries...and move into all otehr sectors as well.

The behavior and principles of centrist Corporate Democrats is not aligned with anything remotely resembling a Trust Buster.

As I recall, they were the first of the big dominoes to fall...things were crazy back then.

giving the Republicans ideas. Now you tell me I'm using Republican ideas.

You probably are the authority I should listen to, having a picture of a Republican as your avatar and all.

Then again some Hillary supporters believe liberals are capable of their own thoughts where you obviously don't believe that.

I have seen a lot of policy criticism. And relationship with Wall Street criticism. Whatis it thatyou thinkis brought up regularly that is a right wing talking point?

Is Hillary bashing herself?

how soon can we ditch her and Debbie and the rest of the stinking pile of DINO-shit called Third Way?

You know they are GONE!

And then another nine months of that corrupt troop? Give me strength!

Bernie gets the nomination.

I don't see Bernie having the pleasure of canning her ass for F'ing up the Democratic Party. She'll run and hide long before Bernie gets the front door keys to the White House.

Thanks for the thread, AzDar.

...means of paying for his very ambitious social programs.

... single payer health care?

Are you against the wealthy + Wall Street + corporations paying their fair share?

What's not credible about that?




On edit: A fair share would be an FDR tax rate.

...proposed programs? If I don't know the answer to that, how can I tell you whether it is fair or not? Has Bernie quoted a figure?

...Sanders is going to tax the wealthy, and how much his programs will cost? You are just playing a rhetorical game Olivaw. Enough evidence for me that you don't know the answer to my questions about Bernie's tax plan and the cost of his programs. You are more interested in casting aspersions on Clinton's supporters. So long.

you have every answer up front.

It reminds me if how the GOP would refuse to initiate a budget: demanding that the Obama Administration had to give them something first si they could complain and deflect.

My query again...

Bernie might as well be saying 10 million dollars for every vote from the corrupt 1% on Wall Street if he is elected, just as likely to happen.

I didn't know she was in the GOP.
I guess that means she won't be investigated from day one if she becomes POTUS either.

It will be one signing party after another for her, Ryan and Rubio.

If he's not proposing a credible means of paying for these programs, then he is giving away free stuff. I am middle class. I don't mind paying much higher taxes to get Western European benefits, but to say that we're going to get expanded social security, free colleges, Medicare for all, and lots of other goodies without raising my taxes ...

To say that we're going to get any of this through a gerrymandered congress ...

I think a lot of you guys are very noble lunatics. I get it why you love Bernie. I love him too. I'd rather he be the president than Hillary. I doubt he would win even if he won the nomination. And what would he get done? Obama can't enact a jobs program. How would Bernie get past a Republican congress and a Senate fillibuster?

Look at some of the latest polls on the Supreme Court. Out of three polls, Americans are evenly split on whether Obama should nominate someone or whether we should wait. Most people believe what the corporate media tell them - that the truth is somewhere in between the Republicans and the Democrats. Any Republican more extreme than the extremists will lose, and Bernie Sanders, for all of his integrity, would have wall to wall negative advertisement from corporate America. At least 2/5 of corporate America will be in the tank for Clinton.

Hillary is in the mold of Obama - she is a little more opportunistic, more phony IMO, but she would be for the same policies - some of which would upset me. But we've won two presidential elections in a row. People remember the Clinton economy, and I think that she can win.

But to underscore the above point, Bernie should state exactly how will pay for all of his promises.

the premier economist in the US, disagrees with you.

James Galbraith Smacks Down the Faux-Liberal Economists In Analysis of Sanders

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511276629

or misunderstood depending on how slick they are. Slickness is a separate quality. Nixon was smart but not slick enough. Bill Clinton was both. Hillary is yet to be determined.

Better than any known purgative

Like Sanders claiming he'always been there for gay people, yet in 2006 he said that marriage equality was "too divisive" for VT and he wanted to stick with civil unions, and back in the eighties, when he was Mayor of Burlington, he actually signed a Defense of Marriage type proclamation:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8FLYbegXp9JNENTR0pVelk3bHM/view






Kind of funny that a divorced guy would sign a proclamation insisting that marriage should be a lifelong commitment between a HUSBAND and a WIFE, but, hey, whatever.

I could be rude and play the ANY QUESTIONS? x3 card, like the OP did, but I think you can read the document for itself and see what it says.

People who are thinking types examine their stances continuously. What was acceptable when a person was younger is often not acceptable now. Times and mores change. Intelligent people adjust their thinking to suit the times in which they live.

Hillary Supporters: Defending The Indefensible Since 2008!

that you have to wait --HOW LONG is acceptable to you? -- "X" amount of time before you reveal that you've changed your mind?

Is the smarter person the one who confronts a disconnect and adjusts to it, or one who soldiers on?

You seem to be angry that she changed her mind too quickly, or something...? Not sure what your gripe is, here.

How DARE she come around to a position I can agree with!! And how DARE she do it quicker than I find suitable, too!!!!

Keep calling attention to it (post 49, folks), with your put-downs of me, though--I don't mind.

That's only legitimate if someone totally changes their ideology.

But considering her record, I guess that's not that far fetched a possibility

you'd be whining that the assertion wasn't backed up by evidence.


That's your evidence that even Bernard can change his mind.

toward Bernie that she says Republicans use on her. There is no 'position' involved, it's a matter of rhetoric with the same words in it being used both as shield and sword.
It's about the exploitation, which is also the problem with posts like yours streaming out of Moderate Straight Folks supporting one of the last Democrats to stop opposing equality for LGBT people. One of the very last and the rest of the last are her endorsers. The are the Holy Holdouts. They bashed us, now they wave us like a flag. It's hard to watch.

There was no "defense of marriage" in 1982 because gay marriage wasn't even on the radar screen.

It's a bullshit "proclamation"

To try and equate that to defense against gay marriage is pathetic.

If he signed a proclamation saying "Dogs are great" , that doesn't mean he wants to strangle cats.

Pathetic.

she figures that she can keep half the Super Tuesday states and keep the primary going until Sanders gets worn out, just coasting on name recognition and Dems afraid to try something new or someone they don't feel a personal connection to; she can just wait out the opposition (and the FBI): then once she's in by hook or by crook we'll just vote her in because everything she said doesn't outweigh the fear of being blamed for a Trump presidency

Yuk...she makes me sick.

If we're going by gut feelings, I get a pain in my gut about Hillary Clinton. I didn't think I'd ever say this about her, but I still don't trust her.

Last edited Mon Feb 22, 2016, 09:23 PM - Edit history (1)

These are repulsive Repub "code words" to most Democrats. Rallying cries for their racist, selfish, ignorant politics and economics
A few others are "balanced budget," "pay fors" "public private partnerships"
"no fly zones," "free trade."

I suspect that's what Sirota is saying. It is painful to hear Hillary shout long standing, obscene Republican campaign slogans.

worked for the AIPAC lobby and for Bernie Sanders? Nah, couldn't be, or the OP would disclose his bias.

which grew out of Olivet University, which is interesting. [link:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiNm5iu5JHLAhVMQBQKHXwTDroQFggdMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motherjones.com%2Fmedia%2F2014%2F03%2Fnewsweek-ibt-olivet-david-jang&usg=AFQjCNGV7tdukkALJiUoo_f0dkB4FN8K4w&sig2=uiIoolbWuja4BAxkj6LZmg|

Nice try, but Sirota tweeted facts, unlike crack journalist Jonathan Capehart.

Including the Center for American Progress:


Wickapedia :


The president and chief executive officer of CAP is Neera Tanden, who worked for the Obama and Clinton administrations and for Hillary Clinton’s campaigns.[5] The first president and CEO was John Podesta, who served as chief of staff to then U.S. President Bill Clinton. Podesta remained with the organization as chairman of the board until he joined the Obama White House staff in December 2013. Tom Daschle is the current chairman.

ties, including to Bernie.

REPUBLICANS characterize "quality affordable healthcare, early childhood education, and job training" as giving away "free stuff."

Bernie Sanders IS promising free college and healthcare, which is fine, except how will it pass congress? HOW?! And if by some miracle it did pass, how would he budget for it? Economists have already shown that his numbers do not add up. He's making promises he can't keep, either because he's lying or unfamiliar with how government works.

Your barf bag is located in the compartment in the seat directly in front of you.

She will do, or say anything to get what she wants.