2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhy Bernie Sanders will NOT be the Democratic nominee.
Bernie Sanders is a very good man with a very good heart, and much of his message is very good, especially about the serious problems of income inequality and campaign finance. But here is why he is not going to be the Democratic nominee.
1) He trashed the party time and again over the years and ran as a non-Democrat Indy. He was too late to the party. This HURTS him BIGTIME. He even went to so far as to advocate primary-ing Obama.
2) We are simply not a European-type socialist country, and he has aligned himself too closely with that ideology. It is simply too far left. He'd be eaten alive in the general election.
3) He has not built a REAL revolutionary movement, and by that I mean one with real infrastructure, leadership, and commitment for the longterm.
4) His policy ideas are too "pie in the sky" and there isn't enough explanation about how he is going to actually deliver on them.
5) He only talks about a massive increase in government and government as the solution to everything. He doesn't talk about small business development, unleashing innovation, etc.
6) He is not imaginable as commander in chief of the armed forces, and he sorely lacks foreign policy experience.
7) He doesn't tailor and adjust his message, and his message is becoming monotone and repetitive with too many talking points and not enough substance, variance, and explanation.
Again, Bernie Sanders is a very good human being strongly saying some things that need saying, but that's not enough. He is too fatally flawed in too many other areas. Hillary on the other hand is much better prepared all the way around and does not come close to having all of the fundamental flaws that Bernie has. As I have long predicted, she will be the nominee, and rightly so. She is amazingly brilliant, prepared, and PROGRESSIVE.
BreakfastClub
(765 posts)as it relates to Bernie's history. He's just not a national candidate. He does seem like a nice man.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)nichomachus
(12,754 posts)On the Democratic side. She is alienating people right and left.
And the establishment media, as much as it is beating the drum for their gal, is petrified of Trump. The WaPo today had seven anti-Trump stories on their home page. You could almost hear them peeing in their pants.
People want something different. Hillary is the poster child for "More of the same old, same old."
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)And "THIS"...
Nothing hurtful or disruptive... just the Secretary speaking her mind time and time again...
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Here's a hanky
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)labeled as "establishment." Let me tell you something, I grew up in the working class and am part of the MIDDLE CLASS. Hillary Clinton also grew up in the middle class. Her dad was a small business owner.
This kind of purity and "progressive elitism" really puts people off, and it is why your candidate is going to lose.
How much TIME and EFFORT are you planning to put in to realize the "revolution" that Sanders wants. Please be forthright.
angrychair
(8,700 posts)Your candidate was the one at the Nevada Town Hall commenting about Bernie Sanders not being a real Democrat because he used to be an independent.
That kind of purity test from a former Republican is ripe with hypocrisy.
livetohike
(22,145 posts)She has every right to bring up his recent conversion. He will go back to being an Independent soon.
angrychair
(8,700 posts)She was still a former Republican. What age she became a Democrat is irrelevant.
Sanders, over his entire Congressional career, has caucused with the Democrats. He is considered the most liberal Senator in the Senate. He is the co-founder of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. He does "Democrat" better than most Democrats.
Spare me your purity test justification.
livetohike
(22,145 posts)angrychair
(8,700 posts)Go derail somewhere else
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)I don't think longevity in the party is necessarily anything to brag about.
angrychair
(8,700 posts)livetohike
(22,145 posts)just old enough to vote and registered as a Democrat.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)at the age of 21 and that's a sign of something?
I'm now completely done with these so called democrats.
what a bunch of crap. let's see how powerful they are against the republican hypocritical machine.
cannabis_flower
(3,764 posts)he was NEVER a Republican.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)None of this is going to matter much anyway. Super Tuesday is right around the corner, and in the few weeks that follow it will be mathematically certain that Bernie will not be the nominee.
TTUBatfan2008
(3,623 posts)...problem is the eventual nominee has a ton of flaws as well. I think it's ridiculous that the DNC discouraged others from getting into the campaign.
Response to RBInMaine (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
JI7
(89,252 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)Has no effect whatsoever, except entertainment, at this point.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)You are doomed to frustration and disappointment.
mgmaggiemg
(869 posts)rock
(13,218 posts)Thanks for organizing them so well!
cali
(114,904 posts)her supporters, among others. He is more electable.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)This is America, not Scandinavia. The R attack machine would chew Bernie to pieces. Hillary will beat The Trumpet like a steel drum.
cali
(114,904 posts)than you. You guys don't understand how deeply distrusted and disliked Hillary is. She has always been unelectable.
hack89
(39,171 posts)how can we not - you never miss an opportunity to inform us of your superiority.
Politics is not for the arrogant - it is too unpredictable and before you know it, there you are eating humble pie.
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)That's the beauty of our election process. The rest of us get to vote for who we choose as well. In Nevada, his first test of a diverse population, and he lead with the youth vote, and we know how reliable that is. So far that revolution hasn't shown up.
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)Almost like it's something to be proud of.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)I'm sure that will provide inspiration and reassurance for people who are bankrupted by an unexpected illness or seniors who are forced to choose between buying food or paying their utility bill.
We don't need no stinkin' euro-style social democracy!!
Next time you're feeling desperate and broke, just say the Pledge.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)This is America, buddy, not one of those countries that cares about working people. It's all about Hillary and her bankster friends.
(That will be $250,000 for my "inspirational speech.)
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Do you speak any other languages?
I have no idea. But, by the things you say I can only guess not. Or perhaps as a tourist.
By the way you know nothing about steel drums either.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)plus, someone willing to take on the big banks. It's a powerful combination.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Saying Clinton is more electable than Sanders is like saying the earth is flat. It's just fingers-in-the-ears denial of reality.
polly7
(20,582 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)Bernie Sanders should talk MORE about small businesses. It's not part of his stump speech, as far as I've noticed.
However, he does sometimes talk about small businesses. During his town-hall in North Minneapolis, he said he wants more small business loans in poor neighborhoods.
In this NYT op-ed, he writes that he wants to reform The Fed so it collects fees from banks which it uses for small business loans:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/23/opinion/bernie-sanders-to-rein-in-wall-street-fix-the-fed.html
"Instead of paying banks interest on these reserves, the Fed should charge them a fee that would be used to provide direct loans to small businesses."
Amishman
(5,557 posts)This isn't hurting Trump on the other side. Lets face it, party loyalty doesn't mean a thing to 95% of the voters, and it is the voters who actually decide.
2) We are simply not a European-type socialist country, and he has aligned himself too closely with that ideology. It is simply too far left. He'd be eaten alive in the general election.
Really? He does better than Hillary in head to head polls against the field of Pubs. I suggest you open your eyes before trotting out the electable line.
3) He has not built a REAL revolutionary movement, and by that I mean one with real infrastructure, leadership, and commitment for the longterm.
Not needed. He just has to motivate the masses, and his still steadily improving poll numbers show it is working.
4) His policy ideas are too "pie in the sky" and there isn't enough explanation about how he is going to actually deliver on them.
All I hear is 'no we can't' from Hillary. I want some real Hope and Change this time, not empty BS. Hillary sure isn't bringing what i want so I will take my chances with a dreamer.
5) He only talks about a massive increase in government and government as the solution to everything. He doesn't talk about small business development, unleashing innovation, etc.
small business development and innovation is being stifled by a broken system. You need to correct the poisoned ground before anything can grow.
6) He is not imaginable as commander in chief of the armed forces, and he sorely lacks foreign policy experience.
Obama had even less experience before taking office. Plus I think we could use less invasions and saber rattling, not more.
7) He doesn't tailor and adjust his message, and his message is becoming monotone and repetitive with too many talking points and not enough substance, variance, and explanation.
being a good bullshitter is not a major qualification for changing the direction of our country. I'll take passion and conviction over empty promises and sweet talking thank you.
Again, Bernie Sanders is a very good human being strongly saying some things that need saying, but that's not enough. He is too fatally flawed in too many other areas. Hillary on the other hand is much better prepared all the way around and does not come close to having all of the fundamental flaws that Bernie has. As I have long predicted, she will be the nominee, and rightly so. She is amazingly brilliant, prepared, and PROGRESSIVE.
Hillary? Progressive? Miss Wallstreet, shady dealing, flip flopping, negativity? There is nothing progressive about her.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)a republican code word to trap every democrat in trivial arguments
Amishman
(5,557 posts)Flip flopping seems a fair description for her ever changing stances which flow based on political expediency.
If you want to look for repug trolls, I suggest you look at the hardcore Hillary ranks. Why? She is certainly the less liberal candidate. She also looks to be the weaker candidate in a general election, and here are the polls to prove it. [link:http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/2016_presidential_race.html|
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)is there anything wrong with changing your mind? I first didn't like Obama, then I did when I found out more. I'm a major flip-flopper.
someone who doesn't change their mind in the face of new facts is more worrisome.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)angrychair
(8,700 posts)In something you may not even read. I'll pick one, the "commander in chief" old hat (#6).
You stated:
"6) He is not imaginable as commander in chief of the armed forces, and he sorely lacks foreign policy experience."
Do you know how many times the "not imaginable as commander in chief" has been uttered by a teapublican about a Democrat? It is an absurd conard. Not a single current candidate for president in 2016 has military experience, including HRC.
Bill Clinton had no significant foreign policy experience to speak of when he took office in 1993.
President Obama had no significant foreign policy experience to speak of when he took office 2009.
Hillary Clinton had no significant foreign policy experience to speak of when she ran for office in 2008. (for all her criticism in this regard, she has inadvertently disqualified her 2008 self. Sanders, as a member of Congress for 30 years, has more foreign policy experience than 2008 HRC)
Most do not. More importantly, no amount of foreign policy experience prepares you well enough to be president. Judgement is a lot more important than military or foreign service experience.
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)global1
(25,253 posts)Congrats!!!!!
1. Hillary was a Repug before she turned Dem
2. Bernie has patterned himself after FDR
3. He is building a revolutionary progressive movement and it will continue to develop steam as we move toward the General Election and long afterwards.
4. He has provided info - go to his website - as to how he will be able to deliver on his policy platform. I don't see them as pie-in-the-sky ideas as they are achievable if we only start working towards them. They are not too hard to achieve.
5. First things first. We need to get people back to work and his infrastructure rebuilding plan will achieve that. The 99%er's need to get back to some level of confidence in the economy and know that they will not be cut off at the knees again by the Bankster's.
6. He will protect our country - but will not enter into wars for the wrong reasons. The People are tired of wars. I like the fact that he is a pacifist and not a hawk - like the other candidates in both parties.
7. All things flow from the financial perspective. Getting the money out of politics. Breaking up the big banks. Reform the tax code and eliminate loopholes and tax breaks that let corporations ship jobs overseas and pay no federal income tax. Putting people back to work. Providing healthcare for all. Expand social security, medicare and medicaid. Letting those that want an education a way to achieve a college degree without going into hock for the rest of their lives. A $15.00 minimum wage. Addressing global climate change issues by moving away from fossil fuels and transforming our energy systems. Those are the things to get the middle class back on their feet and have confidence again that they will not continually be taken advantage of. Yeah - to some it might sound monotone and repetitive - but it is that message that is resonating with The People and waking them up to the ways that they've been taken advantage of. As more and more people hear his message - they join the revolution.
And speaking of Hillary - she has her own set of flaws. She is self-centered, egotistical and has a problem keeping on message and being honest with the American People. She won't even release the transcripts of her paid speeches to Goldman Sachs and other corporate entities. If Hillary wants my vote I want to know for sure that she isn't saying one thing to me and saying something completely different to the Bankster's and Corps. Even Donald Trump talks to the issue of money in politics because he was on the other side and donated to the politicians in order to gain favor when needed. That's not the way one should do business in a Democracy. The monied can't talk for all of us - they are talking only for their own interests and greed.
With Hillary - it will be business as usual and The People are saying 'enough is enough'. The People are tired of the status quo. Look where it got us. We The People want a transformational President. We're willing to take the chance on a person like Bernie that hasn't deviated from his beliefs since he first started getting into politics and all through his career. He has integrity, he is genuine and I trust him. I'm sorry but I can't say the same for Hillary.
madokie
(51,076 posts)On channel 6 KOTV, Tulsa Oklahoma an ad came on that was a Bernie Sanders ad if I've ever seen one, I mean frame for frame then at the last of it was Hillary's picture and her saying I approve of this ad. I shit you not. Bernie called her out on it today, good for him.
No, clinton will not be a President of these united states of America except in some peoples dreams such as yours.
Bernie hasn't trashed the democratic party, simply pointed out differences with he and them on some issues but pretty much are on the same page as the Dems are on most issues. So implying what you're implying is enough to not pay anymore attention to what you have to say going forward. ACTUALLY but I digress
Not expecting this to be a European style socialist country, we're a democratic socialist country and have been since FDR
You are blind if you can't see the revolution that is happening around you today in this country
No pies in the skies, all proposals are achievable and can be paid in full by a fair tax system, such as we had in the '50s, such as we'll go back too in time.
I find this to be as much bull as the rest of what you say. Bernie has made it clear that his policy will not be to use a threat of war as a stick to bludgeon the rest of the world with. Something this old Vietnam Vet agrees with an appreciates very much. 45 years later and my war is still with me, how about you? War is not to be taken lightly as Hillary or any one of the 'CONs does/will
I don't want him to tailor his message to fit the day. His message has carried him well for years and its because its based in reality and agreed to by many. The last thing I want to see is someone who wakes up in a new world every day like his opponent does. As the old saying goes she wakes up in a new world like a duck does every day.
The duck due to his travels, Hillary due to trying to appease whoever she is talking to.
No Hillary will not ever be President, ever. You can bet on that too.
OZi
(155 posts)Oh well, whatever.
1) Ah this party is perfect and above criticism? He wants more from this party than Obama? I for one am tired of voting for neoliberals.
2) I'm getting too old to keep waiting for the party to come to me and offer a refutation to Reagan's revolution so please stop only offering moderates that swing left in the primaries to try and trick me into supporting them.
3) Again, I'm not seeing a resistance to Reagan's revolution coming from a party that panders to liberals to get elected, but really just wants to be moderate. At least with Bernie in the race, issues that are important to me are being talked about. Just one candidate being able to accomplish that seems pretty revolutionary to me.
4) We revolted against a king, defeated the Axis powers, sent men to the moon only to turn around and say: "Let's not rock the boat. Let's not resist the status quo. Let's just lay down and conform and be happy when the oligarchs decide to trough us some crumbs."
5) And how does supporting the gravy train for special interests in Washington address any of those?
6) Experience is not a requirement for democracy. IMO the experience card is just another way of convincing people to keep supporting cronyism.
7) GOOD! I'm tired of bought and paid for politicians changing their rhetoric just to try and find the hollow words they'll use to gain my support. I want someone who actually shares my views and values and not someone who'll say anything to get to represent their friends, connections and special interests. It's MY vote, MY government, not theirs.
Instead of making posts like this, maybe you should be asking: "Why is the independent voting bloc growing so fast? How long will it be before independents outnumber Democrats and Republicans combined?"
Quixote1818
(28,946 posts)Whatever
Persondem
(1,936 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)"1) He trashed the party time and again over the years and ran as a non-Democrat Indy. He was too late to the party. This HURTS him BIGTIME. He even went to so far as to advocate primary-ing Obama. "
This is because the Democratic party shifted so far to the right with the coming of the DLC that it left MOST of the party holding their nose and voting. People were initially excited about Obama.. until he took single payer off the table, gave away the public option when he could have forced it through via reconciliation and made the bush tax cuts permanent. THIS is why he got 10 million less votes in 2012 than in 2008.
"2) We are simply not a European-type socialist country, and he has aligned himself too closely with that ideology. It is simply too far left. He'd be eaten alive in the general election. "
While we are not IN Europe, that ideology is actually VERY POPULAR by a vast majority. Each and every one of Sanders' proposals are supported by a MAJORITY of Americans. (Not necessarily the corporations who buy our politicians, which is why it doesn't become law).
"3) He has not built a REAL revolutionary movement, and by that I mean one with real infrastructure, leadership, and commitment for the longterm. "
This is just plain wrong.
"4) His policy ideas are too "pie in the sky" and there isn't enough explanation about how he is going to actually deliver on them. "
This has been discussed over and over again. Nothing he proposing is "pie in the sky". Free public college.. we USED TO HAVE IT in various cities... an FTT? We had it from 1918 -> 1966. Higher taxes for the rich? Had those before too. Single Payer... something a MAJORITY of people want? What is the "pie in the sky" idea he is proposing?
"5) He only talks about a massive increase in government and government as the solution to everything. He doesn't talk about small business development, unleashing innovation, etc. "
Because government CAN'T "unleash innovation" or make small businesses grow. All government can do is create conditions in which these things can happen. One method would be to give people spending money to support small businesses.. you know, like raising the minimum wage to where it SHOULD BE and WOULD BE if it kept up with inflation. Maybe even making sure more people go to college by making public colleges tuition free??
"6) He is not imaginable as commander in chief of the armed forces, and he sorely lacks foreign policy experience. "
Carter = 0 foreign policy experience. Bill Clinton = 0 foreign policy experience. Barack Obama = 0 foreign policy experience. In the end, foreign policy is ALL about judgment and NOTHING about experience. Clinton has NO valuable foreign policy experience since she led us into the worst disaster in modern history by voting for the Iraq war.
"7) He doesn't tailor and adjust his message, and his message is becoming monotone and repetitive with too many talking points and not enough substance, variance, and explanation. "
His plans are quite detailed and specific (something Clinton lacks).
Clinton may be able to bully her way to be the nominee over the will of the people... but she will NEVER be president, because unless the GOP nominates Cruz.. she can't win.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)That Hillary's foreign policy "experience" has been an unmitigated disaster. Her bumbling and gross incompetence has left the Middle East and Eastern Europe in shambles. Because of her, the world is a far more dangerous place. I shudder to think of what she could do in the Oval Office.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)bush invaded Iraq. how can any democrat say that Hillary made the world a far more dangerous place?
revolting.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)If you know so little about her record, probably you shouldn't vote.
Her actions in destroying Libya alone are reprehensible. So is what she did to Ukraine and Syria. Hillary in the White House would be a threat to the world.
Her speciality seems to be overthrowing democratically elected governments and leaving death and destuction in her wake.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)have an answer to what should have been done - just that she did something. I would love to know what brilliant Bernie supporters would do in Ukraine or Syria. Go to war with Russia? Withdraw and let Islamic state export terror all over the world? arm ourselves? disarm ourselves?
What a joke. Hillary a threat to the world? The biggest threat to the world will be a republican president.
I don't expect an intelligent answer to this from you, just more hatred towards Hillary. Funny, republican arguments are the same. You know what the democrats do right? Without actually giving an analysis.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Gothmog
(145,313 posts)Good luck with the math. In the real world, most people do not believe that the math works in Sanders favor.
http://www.salon.com/2016/02/22/bernie_youre_done_following_nevada_loss_pundits_rush_to_write_sanders_campaign_obits/
New York Times
Noting the amassed delegate math in Clintons favor, so far, the Times reports that the odds of [Sanders] overtaking her growing increasingly remote:
Mrs. Clinton has 502 delegates to Mr. Sanderss 70; 2,383 are needed to win the nomination. These numbers include delegates won in state contests and superdelegates, who can support any candidate. She is likely to win a delegate jackpot from the overwhelmingly black and Hispanic areas in the Southern-dominated Super Tuesday primaries on March 1, when 11 states will vote and about 880 delegates will be awarded.
Since delegates are awarded proportionally based on vote tallies in congressional districts and some other areas, only blowout victories yield large numbers of delegates. And Mrs. Clinton is better positioned than Mr. Sanders to win big in more delegate-rich districts, like those carved out to ensure minority Democrats in Congress, where she remains popular.
Slate
Barring a catastrophe, Slates Jamelle Bouie wrote, Clintons nomination is inevitable again.
This doesnt mean the campaign is over, Bouie was quick to note, adding that Sanders is still a formidable candidate.
But the uncertainty that has defined the race since New Hampshire is over for the time being. Clinton still has her advantage with black and Latino voters, and in a Democratic primary, that is dispositive, he concludes.
The fact that Sanders has given up on South Carolina is not a good sign
think
(11,641 posts)HassleCat
(6,409 posts)She's PROGRESSIVE, now, and all in caps. I had no idea.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)Your misguided candidate lies and lies and lies and lies. She's a joke.
Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)There was a time when the Democratic Party did all the things you said we can't do. However, thanks to Bill Clinton, Democrats now echo Republican talking points and think like you.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)The Clintons wrecked the Democratic party. We're taking it back.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)Hopefully she won't be our candidate.
Corey_Baker08
(2,157 posts)As VP He Could Still Go After Campaign Finance Reform, Ending The Corruption On Wall Street.
Bernie Sanders Could Better Serve Our Country As Vice President Than As A United States Senator Without A Doubt!
This Would Also Bridge The Divide Within The Democratic Party & Bring In Those Independents That Have Been Essential To Bernie Winning The Small States...
oasis
(49,389 posts)for a GE battle against the very billionaire class he's always ranting about.
"Never a take a knife to a gunfight ".