and not just rolling over and surrendering to the Sandersistas.

For months now Berniacs have been screeching that Clinton is unelectable, untrustworthy, will wipe out Democratic candidates down-ballot, and needs to give up her efforts in the face of their incorruptible candidate.

Frankly I think there are a lot of closet REPUBLICANS in the ranks of Bernie supporters, based on the REPUBLICAN talking points they continue to use and point to as evidence of Clinton's unelectability.

Hill-bots have been talking about blaming Bernie VOTERS if she loses the general.
We take issue with her and her SURROGATES for their dirty tricks, we don't blame the voters for falling for them.

This is a PRIMARY. Vote for who you like best. Whoever has the most votes at the end wins, or something approximating that. No foul there.

BUT, if in the GE Sander's voters sit out or go third party, then yeah, I blame them. And they also need to understand why their priorities are not paramount to the party. Because if you don't show up on game day or don't even play for the team, then you don't get a share when the team wins. But if enough Sanders voter DO show up for the GE, then you control a legit voting block and can start demanding that your issues get more attention. How it works in a democracy, just FYI.....

candidate they want to vote FOR. We are finished with the lesser of evils argument, it no longer works. If people write in, vote 3rd party or stay home it's their right as citizens. Neoliberal authoritarians hold little in the way of motivation to vote for Hillary just because she has a D after her name. In every way that matters she will be just as destructive as an R candidate.

for not providing you with a candidate up to your high, high standards while you sit on your butt and complain. WE are the party, not some authoritarian Wizard of Oz. The Democratic Party is just a bunch of people who show up and do the work (Which is not me, BTW. I mostly volunteer with activists groups, and occasionally for a candidate. But I don't whine endlessly about the rules of the game either.).

If you don't like the candidates they put up, run yourself, or become your precinct chair and start voting on the rules. Recruit a good grassroots candidate and manage their campaign. Do something. Because the people who show up and do the work get to decide. Not hard to understand.

You sit out, you get exactly what you deserve, which is nothing.

I don't think saying how things are is whining but you and I have very different feelings about politics and money and corruption.

I didn't say I'd sit out but that browbeating people and blaming them for Hillary won't work and whatever their choice it's their choice to make.

you with a candidate that is up to your oh so discerning standards. Where I grew up, that would be called whining. No one is going to provide you with shit. You go get it, make it happen. And on game day, you suit up and play for your team. Doesn't matter if you think the coach is shit, or you don't like a few of your teammates. You play. What you are proposing is to take your ball and go home, and after the game has already started too. That is the height of bad sportsmanship. If Sanders wins, I PROMISE I will be there for the team on game day. You can bet your life.

This is a democracy. If you are more liberal that 90% of the people out there, then chances are, you are going to settle sometimes when it comes to a candidate.

And if you are too precious to hold you nose and vote for Clinton (if she is the nominee), and think that allowing Donald Trump or Ted Cruz to make the next two Supreme Court picks will be a better way to decrease corruption in government, then there is more difference between you and I than just feelings

And kiss repro rights goodbye, too.

You continue to blame the voters. Your logic is ridiculous . . in a Democracy, if you don't like one candidate you vote for a different candidate.
If they Democratic party wants someone's vote then they need a candidate people will vote for.
There are many Democrats voting for her, but she will lose in the GE because she is not liked, not trusted and can't win the largest voting block -- independents.
So if the Democratic party can't figure this out, they will lose votes. Don't blame the voters if you put up a seriously flawed candidate.

" But if enough Sanders voter DO show up for the GE, then you control a legit voting block and can start demanding that your issues get more attention. How it works in a democracy, just FYI....."

I understand you're trying to be optimistic. But I find your above statement to be naive...and an argument used since the dawn of politics. We could hold her feet to the fire like no one ever has and I highly doubt it would make a difference. It never has before with any politician and I don't think it ever soon will.

Nope. Not falling for it. I may have been born at night...but it wasn't last night. As a matter of principles I will not hold my nose and "get in line". You want me vote you have to actually be someone I feel good in voting for.

If she loses, Hillary supporters have nobody but themselves to blame. Passing it off on others is cowardly.

I have. It does make a difference. Truly. I can list a bunch of local and state issues where groups I was involved with made a huge difference. And we actually DID get the attention of POTUS because we were so damn successful at what we were doing. You know why we hit trouble? Voters like you who believe it is someone else's job to fix everything, who expect that ALL of their issues will be front and foremost and everyone else should wait patiently and who think that problems 200 years in the making can be fixed in a four year span.

Y'all like to trash talk the doers but do not seem inclined to actually do any of the work. I am more liberal than most Sanders supporters. Difference is, I actually understand the effort involved in the process and as a result, judge a bit less harshly.

the team that ground your candidate down and played very dirty --ie. planted lies (has Sanders played dirty?--I don't think so--he just says the truth that people don't want to hear).

So that's the team we should join?

As for "we don't get a share" when the team wins." I doubt at this point that anybody expects to get a share of anything. "Control a legit voting block and demand you issues get more attention" = yes that's how it works in a democracy. Have you noticed that doesn't seem to be working anymore?

I for one want to win in this fall that is one reason I am for Bernie

"and it's YOUR fault for pointing that out"

It is up to Hillary to convince Sanders supporters to support her. If she fails at that, it's not the Sanders supporters fault. It's Hillary's responsibility and fault. She's the candidate.

If she can't do that, then it is HER fault and not the voters. No one OWES her a vote, that's only what the "entitled" think. And that's what those who make excuses are saying, they think people OWE her a vote for some irrational reason.
Those who think otherwise are making excuses.

enough people to vote for him in the primary? That is HIS fault, right? Because no one owes him either, right? And anyone who says he is not at fault is irrational? Just checking.....

BTW, if he wins, I will absolutely vote for him and also donate and volunteer, even though I don't care for him much as a candidate. Because I play for the team and I understand, big picture, what a Trump or Cruz presidency means to the Supreme Court

The Democratic party has put their finger on the scale. Anyone who is fair can see this. If they continue to use the stifling tactics they are employing, they are to blame for the flawed outcome of a flawed process.
If you truly play for the team and are worried about a Republican president, then why aren't you promoting the most electable candidate? By them pushing their favored candidate, they are not allowing an unbiased outcome, so it will be their own fault when she loses. Not the voters.

You provide no links or even reasoning to back up your claim. It is just your opinion. And everyone has one of those.

And if you don't like the Democratic Party's nomination process, you get involved and change it. This is a two party system, and one of the limitations is that there are only two parties. But they are not as monolithic as you seem to believe. There are factions within each party, and if you work hard and actually demonstrate the ability to turn your voters out at election time, you get to start making decisions.

But what you are proposing is to NOT turnout your voters as a protest. So you get nothing. Nobody gives a single shit what you think if you don't turnout to vote on election day.

Tea Party is a bunch of gaping assholes, but holy god can they turn their people out at elections. That is why they are successful and you are not. They figured out how the system worked, made a plan to game it and then organized their supporters to actually vote.

Seems like an excuse not to do work to me Bitch and complain about how "they" are not doing the work the way you think is best, see how far that gets you. Have you ever done serious GOTV? OMG, it is such an endless grind.... But the people who do it well, THEIR opinion is respected.

I find the Hillary supporters do it all on hope and fantasy. Poll after poll, month after month, credible polling organizations have posed the head-to-head question to REAL AMERICANS. And month after month, Bernie beats them all and Hillary does not.
Hillary also has the 2nd least favorability. The only worse favorability is Trump. And she has one of the least trustability numbers. Bernie is at the top on each of these ACCORDING TO ALL THE REAL AMERICANS they have asked.
I keep hearing what Hillary supporters "believe" and "think", etc. I don't care. You are only one vote, and these polls ask many.
You can choose to hide your head in the sand and ignore that or make excuses or rationalizations, but how is that different than those who deny climate change?
Be uninformed if you choose. It is your choice. But please don't try to push that nonsense on thinking people, try to muddy the waters. It is nonsense.

You can't game the system in the Democratic Primary to be "the inevitable one" -- which ironically illustrates how weak one actually is -- then blame people for not buying into their self created illusion.

We can and should do better, but the 1% chooses Hillary.

When more if us wake up, they have to work harder to create the illusion or will just have to take the mask off.

in the GE.

It is possible that Bernie could win the state. It's just that Clinton is enormously unpopular here.

into voting against their own interests & values has been used
and abused for decades now, and it's wearing pathetically thin.

eom

Clinton Camp might like to play Karl Rove Dirty politics but the student can not teach the master in this case. Hillary uses trick #45 from "Karl Rove Winning Elections for dirty dishonest Dummies" "SwiftBoating your way to turning opponents strong points into a negative" Has Media portray a White Civil Activist into a uncaring white bro.
Yea wait till master Karl Rove get a hold of the real email case. Look how much they got out of all the other scandals. Talk to (I) and not people who are (D - "toe the party line&quot and they will see they don't hold Hillary as such a sweet little lady.

as I posted on another thread....


It's the Hillary folks who will need to live with it. Instead of supporting the real progressive who actually fought against NAFTA/CAFTA, the war in Iraq, doesn't take money from super PACs/big banks/Wall St, doesn't talk out of both sides of his mouth, wants' real health care reform, has promised to protect SS/Medicare, fights for veteran's and on and on... they are choosing Hillary - the one who embodies ALL of that and more - including all the scandals that go with her.

It will be THEIR fault if we get Trump or whoever. We warned them. The time is now.

...will make all the horrible infighting going on now look like an episode of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood. Bernie voters, black voters, independents, etc...it will be truly horrible and depressing.

But I'm can't really get on my high horse about that...as I fully intend to be absolutely merciless with a few of the more toxic, condescending, dismissive Hillary supporters. You reap what you sow, and all that.

That is the reality.

If I'm not in a swing state, or one of the two states that assigns Electors proportionally (and I'm not), that simply isn't the case. My state will go "blue," regardless of which Democrat is the candidate. I can reject the corporatist with a perfectly clear conscience.

... when DNC has to game debate schedule, when dirty tricks by HRC are evident, I'd say the 1%, not us, run the show.

If Democratic Party really wand truly wanted to win, they'd be helping and not hindering the like able candidate. They don't care. If 1% gets what they want, they will be compensated and at our expense.

If she is unable to win voters, that is her fault. Why you people think that anyone OWES her a vote is beyond my comprehension.

People have been faulting Bernie for not sufficiently "appealing to black voters." Well...Hillary's not appealing to progressives and young voters.

Those who voted for Hillary in the first place.

Gee, won't this be fun??

Part 1: Vote for the person you want in the primaries. On Tuesday, for me, that will be Bernie.

Part 2: Vote the hell for whoever keeps Trump or Cruz out of the White House.

Losing in Part 1 doesn't make abdicating on Part 2 ok.

I am sure they will enjoy it.

for not selecting a WINNING candidate. Instead of blaming voters for your shortcomings. That is probably why the Democrats under DWS have lost 900 elected offices since she started. Because of your backwards thinking.
Shouldn't it be about what you can do for us rather than thinking that we owe you something. Probably the way England thought before we finally Declared our Independence.

who choose to help the Republicans.

It is not impossible that Sanders would win an election against Trump.

And it's certainly not impossible that Clinton would lose to Trump, or even unlikely that she's lose to anyone else.

But against any Republican, Clinton (or O'Malley, or a two-headed snake with only one moustache) would do better than self-proclaimed socialist and atheist Bernie Sanders. He'd make a perfectly adequate president (although not as good a one a Clinton), but an unmitigated catastrophe of a candidate (and, to preempt: head-to-head matchup polling at this stage has essentially zero correlation with election outcome).

Unless there is a third party candidate who intentionally siphons off a lot of Democratic votes.

True Dems will show up and vote.

authenticity and honesty and they HATE Hillary, the least authentic candidate in two generations.

Neither party can win without independent support, and Hillary has earned ZERO independent support. We lose, and it won't be close with Hillary.

We win, and it won't be close, with Sanders.

Cruz beats Hillary RESOUNDINGLY and Trump beats her narrowly; Sanders crushes both Cruz and Trump.

If we lose, blame the Clintons, blame the Debbie Wasserman Schultz, blame the anti-Progressive voters in the Deep South, blame the M$M, or blame the Super Delegates, but don't blame those who warned us that we're headed on a path to a Cruz-Trump presidency.

That just means she could not win enough votes.

The same does apply to Bernie.

see what the exit polls say

yup

I guess false hope keeps you going. What ever

DWS has done back flips favoring Hillary! DWS claim that debates were scheduled on weekends so more voters could watch was thoroughly researched and called false by Politifact.
Then there's the super delegates who were committed to Hillary BEFORE primaries and caucuses even took place. Super delegates do not have to follow what the voters say- and they're NOT! This race was fixed months ago!