2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWho's the better Christian? Bernie or Hill?
Not according to dogma, but according to action?
on edit: I'm an atheist, and I believe Bernie is a WAY better Christian (by action) than Hillary.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)ret5hd
(20,508 posts)I will clarify in the OP.
lob1
(3,820 posts)FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)juxtaposed
(2,778 posts)putitinD
(1,551 posts)bigtree
(86,005 posts)...'let's talk about their faith like it's dogma.'
Keep it up.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)And yes - the purpose of that question in the debate absolutely appeared to be seeking to divide.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)noamnety
(20,234 posts)She should have just said directly what she wanted to say: "Can you please take a minute to pander to the Christian vote?"
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)TheProgressive
(1,656 posts)It's in the Constitution...
ret5hd
(20,508 posts)perhaps we should ask Kissinger.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Neither in dogma, nor in action.
ret5hd
(20,508 posts)Please tell us the ways he is deficient in his actions.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Christianity is not the definition of virtue.
ret5hd
(20,508 posts)Hypocrisy is a more pertinent point.
(also, as i edited into my OP, I am an atheist)
oberliner
(58,724 posts)He does not believe in Christianity.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Which is fine with me.
I'm a big fan of cultural Judaism.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The question is preposterous.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)ret5hd
(20,508 posts)have the same core tenet: Do unto others...
From that limited perspective I believe Bernie is the better "Christian".
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It is indeed the foundational premise of the religion.
This is not something that Bernie Sanders believes.
ret5hd
(20,508 posts)As I said, actions not dogma.
But I haven't really liked you for a long time. If I aggravate you, so be it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If you want to change the definition of Christian to just mean a "nice person who cares about poor people" then the entire OP is rendered meaningless.
I am not at all aggravated, and I think if you got to know me, you'd like me a lot.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)That is probably why I am emphasizing the point repeatedly.
ret5hd
(20,508 posts)Well, at least we are both doing everything we can to make the world a better place!
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)(Buttons pushed, in case you couldn't tell... ;-> )
ret5hd
(20,508 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I'm distracted by shiny objects!
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)denverbill
(11,489 posts)There are a lot of people who claim to be Christians very loudly, but act nothing like what Jesus taught.
Republicans all, including Donald Trump, claim to be Christians, but don't support anything which would support Jesus' view. Jesus taught about loving others as yourself, loving your enemies, and avoiding the perils of wealth. Republicans, and many Democrats, talk about the needy as leeches, about hating your enemies, and greed is their virtual religion.
Bernie is the only candidate who truly care about wealth inequality, helping those who need help, and restoring a wealth balance to American politics. Hillary and Bill may be fine in terms of social policies, but on economics, they'll go to bat for the Waltons every time.
ret5hd
(20,508 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)As the glow-in-the-dark Jesus on the cross I had when I was a kid. (Don't ask....!)
denverbill
(11,489 posts)However, I do believe in Jesus' teachings regarding treating everyone as you would want yourself to be treated, including your enemies. There are limits to the latter of course but generally speaking, the world would be a far, far better place if someone with the temperament of Jesus ruled, while people with the temperament of Donald Trump ... drooled.
Give me Jimmy Carter over Paul Ryan any day of the week. Greed is evil versus greed is good.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)TheUndecider
(93 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Bernie's positions on issues have nothing to do with Jesus and what he may or may not have taught.
denverbill
(11,489 posts)Frankly, as an agnostic, i'm pretty fucking free to pick and choose whatever I like from whoever I choose. And if I like Hitler's position on domestic spending to rebuild infrastructure and Jesus' position on helping those who need help, I don't necessarily have to believe I should put Jesus to death for being a Jew (or not Jewish enough if I was a Jewish religious official in 0 AD) or Jesus' belief that there is a hell (or heaven for that matter).
My positions also tend to agree with Adam Smith who said:
Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.
― Adam Smith
...
Our merchants and masters complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price and lessening the sale of goods. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people.
...
The interest of [businessmen] is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public ... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order ... ought never to be adopted, till after having been long and carefully examined ... with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men ... who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public
― Adam Smith, An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations. Volume 1 of 2
I always find it interesting that I have more in common with Jesus and Adam Smith, the 'father' of capitalist theory, men whom my philosophical opponents claim to support, than most Republicans do.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That is precisely my point.
Why bring Christianity into it at all?
Bernie is a good person with deeply held values and principles that have nothing whatsoever to do with "being a good Christian" as he is not a Christian by any reasonable definition of the word.
denverbill
(11,489 posts)I guess my point is that I believe the vast majority of people in America support the most important 'Christian' values. That includes Christians (including Catholics/Mormons/etc who some 'christians' don't consider Christians), Jews, Muslims Buddhists, etc. And Bernie Sanders in my opinion, better promotes Christian (and Jewish and Muslim and atheist) values more than any other candidate.
Almost every Republican plays up their religion, exactly like Jesus told people not to. He told people to pray to god like a thief in the night, not running around bragging about how religious they were but to pray in secret when nobody else could hear.
Sorry if I got defensive, but I think there are a lot of people who think that because Bernie isn't 'Christian' it's a character flaw. I see now that wasn't your point and I think we really agree by and large. I guess what I was saying that for not being a 'christian' Bernie is more 'Christian' than any Donald Trump/Paul Ryan supporter I know.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)But I really don't like the framing. I don't think Jewish people like being told that they are "Christian" even if it is meant positively.
denverbill
(11,489 posts)I feel like I'm explaining myself into disagreement when I should just be nodding my head and agreeing.
I just feel like the world's main religions ultimately agree on 95% of their beliefs, and that the fact that Bernie is ostensibly Jewish should make no difference to people who claim to be devout Christians, because he exemplifies their beliefs by his nature. It's not that I think there should be a religious test for office. It's that I think if you judge a person by their character, an agnostic like me can be more Christian than Paul Ryan or Donald Trump. And if you judge Bernie Sanders by what I think would have been Jesus' yardstick, Bernie would beat any candidate in this race by a mile.
denverbill
(11,489 posts)Bernie, a fairly secular Jew, better exemplifies and upholds the values of Christianity, than any self-professed 'Christian' Republican in America.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)A core Christian value is making God the focal point of your life. That people should look to God for guidance on important matters. That people should behave in such a way that they will be looked upon with favor by the Lord Jesus Christ who will reward such behavior with eternal life. This is something that is in complete opposition to the beliefs of a person like Bernie Sanders.
denverbill
(11,489 posts)And I personally think atheists can have a similar focus.
I can't debate you any more tonight my friend. You are too much like me. We might be able to find things to argue about regarding minor details, but frankly, from everything you have said tonight we are ideological twins.
Goodnight, and keep fighting the good fight.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It is actually radically different from Judaism in particular in this regard.
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion!
denverbill
(11,489 posts)This first commandment of Judaism was to have no other gods before God. And Islamic people spend a lot more time every day focusing on God than most Christians, considering they stop and pray several times a day. The most devout Christians may pray at meals, at best.
I think very few people who call themselves Christians make God the focal point of their lives. I have known some really good Christians who did, and I'm quite sure there are really good Jews and Muslims who do as well, but the vast majority of Christians, Jews, and Muslims at best give God lip-service.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Sorry that wasn't clear. The whole getting-into-heaven focus is where Christianity and Judaism are starkly different.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)ret5hd
(20,508 posts)Bucky
(54,041 posts)I think policy is not sectarian
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)ret5hd
(20,508 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)They'd all fall short.
As far as being in tune with the force of the universe, I'd say Sanders has it. His intent is true.
ret5hd
(20,508 posts)I fail constantly.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)ret5hd
(20,508 posts)Some days I wish I could get by with it, but today I did not follow through.
840high
(17,196 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)TheUndecider
(93 posts)JohnnyLib2
(11,212 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)ret5hd
(20,508 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)yourout
(7,532 posts)ret5hd
(20,508 posts)I hope you agree.
yourout
(7,532 posts)dchill
(38,516 posts)gwheezie
(3,580 posts)Did Jesus tell Bernie to run?
ret5hd
(20,508 posts)agracie
(950 posts)ret5hd
(20,508 posts)See you in the morning.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)You cannot follow the tenets of both. The number and nature of gods clash.